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Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by swalsh on Friday August 05, 2016 @03:51PM (#12235282)
You should try putting the text into git, has all those tools built in... plus a lot more, and no emailing.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by na85 on Friday August 05, 2016 @05:08PM (#12235766)
I have family who are lawyers.

They and a great many of their colleagues can barely type without looking at the keyboard. You're suggesting that the kind of person who still double-clicks on hyperlinks can learn git?

I'm an aerospace engineer and I can barely use git. Git's UI/UX is a fucking disaster that just happens to suck less than what came before it.

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by leohutson on Friday August 05, 2016 @10:26PM (#12236755)
Git is not great UX wise, but it's probably not as big of an issue as people like to make out, especially if you are already comfortable in a shell. The reason people find git hard is that concepts of distributed version control are hard.

There are plenty of nice git native GUI's and web apps, and mercurial offers a more consistent command line UX, but that doesn't change the fact that people need to understand a crap load of higher-level concepts before they can find their DVCS useful. Such as:

file-system folder structures

diffs/patches

commits/uncommited changes

branching

merging and conflict resolution.

remote vs local repositories

To me it's like how people complain about mathematical notation being complicated and inconsistent, but that's just the first superficial "alien" looking stuff that tells you that you don't understand the new concept. Once you understand the underlying concepts, the notation doesn't get much further thought.

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by na85 on Saturday August 06, 2016 @01:05AM (#12237107)
>The reason people find git hard is that concepts of distributed version control are hard.

Maybe. For me it was because the documentation is written like a comp sci whitepaper. I've ranted about this elsewhere on HN but the man pages are filled with stuff like "update remote refs" as if a person would have a fucking clue what a ref is and why you'd want to update a remote one.

Branching, merging, tagging, all of that sounds great. I've been using git for years, but the problem is that I don't use it every day, and so I still get a little wary when I want to run a merge. I can't tell you right now off the top of my head how to merge if there is a conflict. I always have to google around for "how to undo a commit". Etc. etc. etc.

Where the fuck do my files go when I switch to a different branch? Do they actually change in the working directory? Checkout vs fetch? Where exactly in the file system is this alleged "staging area"? I have no idea about any of these, mostly because the documentation is just so poorly written that it takes me too long to find out the answers and I have more important things to do than Greco-Roman wrestling matches with my software tooling, but I'm afraid that if I just try things at random I'll do something I can't undo because none of the options seem particularly intuitive.

It's just not a very good piece of software.

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by rimantas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @03:52AM (#12237462)
Software is good , your mental model of it is bad. Trying to put the squre peg of git into the round hole of filesystem is bound to produce frustration.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by pjmlp on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:57AM (#12237554)
> The reason people find git hard is that concepts of distributed version control are hard.

Have you ever used Mercurial?

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by zekevermillion on Friday August 05, 2016 @05:44PM (#12235926)
I think you would want to combine an open source toolset with a paid service with trained monkeys to bridge the gap. For instance let's say I send a draft out, and receive a PDF markup back. The trained monkey would make sure that the new version is accurately reflected in the repo. As long as I am working natively, then exporting my response back into whatever lame format is desired will be trivial. It's a bridge to a better world and more elegant system.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by na85 on Friday August 05, 2016 @07:13PM (#12236310)
The engineer in me hates how inefficient that is. Also it smacks of a make-work project... paying someone to manually insert markup seems like a huge waste of money.

Surely it'd be cheaper in the long run to just spend the money on some UX designers?

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by zekevermillion on Friday August 05, 2016 @09:49PM (#12236682)
I think you need a human to manage the import bc any OCR or conversion error could kill the whole experience. Hopefully rhe machines could get us 90 percent of the way there. You know law firms used to employ armies of typists to prepare manual (pencil) difs of paper docs, so there is a certain cultural willingness to pay for perfect results, particularly on larger transactions.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by Jtsummers on Friday August 05, 2016 @03:59PM (#12235341)
Which gets to the post (so I assume this is meant ironically/sarcastically?), steep learning curve of numerous tools.

What lawyers (specialists in their field) and others negotiating contracts could use is a subset of git, with better UI.

They need version control of the document.

They need to know who can edit it at this stage, or who needs to sign off (workflow management).

They need to know who did edit it.

Systems like this exist that are better than git, some people in the software industry use requirements tracking databases. These are almost literally what's needed once you (often included in them) add on the workflow management: collaborative document editing, ability to view diffs, knowledge of who edited it, restrictions on who may edit it and when, etc.

But if it's too small a field, or too disconnected from those of us who can make it, then software like this won't be made or widely used and they'll continue using the functional (but error-prone) method of copy/rename and email.

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by swalsh on Friday August 05, 2016 @04:15PM (#12235449)
It started off a smug joke, but in all seriousness... git/github is the PERFECT tool to store legal documents. Pull requests have clear documented changes. Documents can be forked, different lawyers could work on the same document, and merge changesets whatever. Everything programmers do to source code, lawyers do to law documents.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by Jtsummers on Friday August 05, 2016 @04:29PM (#12235534)
I agree. But it still has the problem of:

They need to learn a new document markup (how well does word play with git for grabbing diffs?).

They need to learn git/github.

It needs to be secure (these are legal contracts, potentially containing detailed information that doesn't need to be out when it's in draft and not signed). This is fine, host your own git repos, but that's an additional technical cost to the company.

It is, ultimately, still an ad hoc process. Is the cost of learning and adapting to this, to only gain the version controlled document store, sufficient to justify the process? Across an industry?

Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by jolux on Friday August 05, 2016 @08:57PM (#12236571)
It probably wouldn't diff terribly but the markup used in .docx is extremely verbose and not really designed to be human writable the way say markdown is. Most users don't see formatting as markup, because as far as they can tell it's WYSIWYG and stored that way. The idea that content and style can even be separate is very foreign for lots of folks, let alone that the representation on disk is text without style.
Re:The Two Cultures of Computing (2013) by zekevermillion on Friday August 05, 2016 @09:33PM (#12236651)
Ideally the markup would be limited to section numbering (need more levels of nesting than md or html offers) and definitions. Then once a contract is finalized you could apply fancy styles before printing a closing set.