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Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by StavrosK on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:41AM (#12217480)
Isn't it about time we got rid of the ridiculous "if we haven't researched it, we know nothing about it" fallacy?

Research is strong evidence that points towards something. Lack of research doesn't mean complete lack of a-priori knowledge. If something is obviously good for you, then that's probably a good start for recommending it.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by robbiep on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:42AM (#12217819)
Your argument is a slippery slope for the acceptance of every kind of pseudoscience.

How do we know something is 'obviously' good for you without research? NOTHING Is so cut and dry that you can make that statement. For example: organic food. Obviously, must be amazing for you. Got two great buzzwords in it: organic and food. Therefore, amazing for you. Does the research bear this out?

Similarly, homeopathy, reiki, psychic surgery, acupuncture.

Vaccines: foreign substance entering our body. Therefore, terrible for you. Stands to reason right?

How could you make such a sweeping statement claiming the higher ground that we must exist in such an enlightened age that we don't have to continually fight the battle for evidence based activities in all activities?

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mikeash on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:09AM (#12218477)
Has anyone done the research on the health benefits of rubbing broken glass in your eyes twice a day? Somehow I doubt it. Would you say that we know nothing about it? Personally, I am quite happy to accept based purely on common sense and intuition that this is unlikely to be healthy.

Research is just another tool. It happens to be a really good one, and when research contradicts common sense and intuition, research usually wins. ("Usually" because it can be flawed, just like anything else.)

But in the absence of research, we can still do better than just saying "uh, I dunno" in many cases.

The alternative isn't reasoning based on buzzwords, it's based on thought and available evidence. No, that's far from perfect, but it's also not going to lead you into homeopathy, reiki, psychic surgery, or acupuncture. Flossing has a plausible mechanism of action, unlike any of your examples. If it turns out that this plausible mechanism of action doesn't actually have any long-term benefits, then that sucks, but it doesn't mean we should give up on thinking about anything that hasn't been researched.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by deelowe on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:56PM (#12222854)
> health benefits of rubbing broken glass in your eyes twice a day?

I'm sure there are plenty of medical journals documenting the effects of getting abrasive substances in your eyes.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mikeash on Thursday August 04, 2016 @09:51AM (#12225449)
Broken glass isn't abrasive so much as pointy and sharp.

Also, I doubt any of those documented effects are from properly designed studies, nor do they examine a long-term daily treatment regimen. Are you just assuming that daily treatment would be bad based on what happens after one instance, plus common sense and intuition?

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by tomaskafka on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:43AM (#12218236)
Your argument is a slippery slope to discarding intuition :).
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by CoryG89 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:15AM (#12218534)
I don't think it's much of a slippery slope. I think most of us would (or at least should) agree, up front, that intuition isn't worth much. Even when investigating topics that are considered obvious.

"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

--Socrates

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by saiya-jin on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:20AM (#12218575)
intuition can be easily swayed by emotions... harder to do with facts
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by goocy on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:49AM (#12217852)
Devil's advocate: slippery slopes are only slippery if they slip both ways.

So I could argue that even research results aren't sufficient proof for efficacy. For example, why should a "significant result" be a better argument than personal experience?

Meh, 2/10. Not that slippery.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by gjem97 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:47AM (#12217509)
I think that's missing the point. And, as an aside, so are all the comments in this thread that are essentially "flossing works for me, so I'm going to keep doing it." The point of this article is not that people should stop flossing, or that it's bad for some reason. The point is that an entire industry of medical professionals were saying "floss because it reduces you risk of tooth decay and gum disease," when in fact there is little evidence that it does either. It is a huge detriment to the credibility of dentists in my opinion.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by ewzimm on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:40AM (#12217810)
Not everything needs research. Flossing removes decompsosing food from between your teeth. Dentists understand that tooth decay and gum disease result from prolonged exposure to decomposing food. If doctors told me that putting out shirt fires reduces the risk of burning to death, I would trust them without verified research.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by badsock on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:25AM (#12218104)
Flossing can drive bacteria deeper into your gums, even causing them to be enter the bloodstream, which then (there's been some evidence) can have an influence on heart disease.

Public policy needs research. Human history is absolutely stacked with "obvious" truths turning out to be harmful falsehoods.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by ewzimm on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:42AM (#12218235)
I just looked that up, and I did find some advice that flossing addresses the food issue but not the issue of a bacterial infection not attached to pieces of food, which is probably also obvious. There are suggestions to use a water pick instead of flossing, which dentists have also recommended for a long time, but it's just not as available as string or toothpicks. It's not productive to tell everyone only to use the best possible solution if only 1% will actually do it.

So you have a good point, there are always new things to discover, but this is obvious in a way that's understood and doesn't in any way call into question the legitimacy of dentistry.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by badsock on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @12:14PM (#12219041)
My point isn't that there's always new things to discover, it's that nature has so routinely made fools of us that the argument of "it's obvious" should carry little weight.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by merpnderp on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:13AM (#12218010)
"Dentists understand that tooth decay and gum disease result from prolonged exposure to decomposing food." Does the type of food matter, carbs, protein, sugar? How soon should one floss after eating to avoid damage? Does flossing just before bed help? By how much? Should you floss after every meal? How much does it help?

For all we know, sugary carbs that tend to get stuck between teeth do their damage in minutes or a few hours and flossing at night won't help. Or flossing too soon removes enzymes in your saliva that protect teeth from buildup or disease.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by ewzimm on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:35AM (#12218169)
Those are some good points. Maybe there's an argument for using a water pick instead of flossing. But not everyone has access to one of those, and I wouldn't mistrust the entire dental profession because they tell people to clean their teeth without research.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by logfromblammo on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:16AM (#12218542)
Dental caries result from certain species (S. mutans et al) of bacteria digesting sugars into acids that chemically erode bioapatite. If you destroy the bacteria, such as by using mouthwash, or prevent them from adhering to the teeth, such as by using xylitol, or deprive them of sustenance, such as by not eating sugars or simple carbohydrates, you won't get cavities, and you won't need to worry about flossing--to prevent cavities.

But cavities are not the only problem you can have in your mouth.

Food particles left in the mouth for long periods can cause an inflammatory response in the gums. This can lead to bone loss in the jaw. And that can cause your cavity-free teeth to fall out.

Flossing through the space between tooth and gum can potentially remove such particles, which would help prevent gum disease. But it might not be necessary to do it every day. Once a week, maybe? After eating jerky or popcorn?

I have no idea how often it is necessary to floss to achieve a statistically significant reduction in any of the oral diseases, or how much of a difference there may be between flossing twice a day and flossing once a month.

My dentist recommends flossing whenever I brush. While the recommendation to floss is probably well supported, I suspect that the frequency may be more based on psychology than anything else. They just attach it to the brushing habit. Perhaps it would be better to attach it to "whenever you trim your fingernails", or "whenever you shave your legs", even though those are not related to oral hygiene.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by flushandforget on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:42AM (#12218227)
Completely anecdotal, my brother totally neglected his teeth when he was young. He just didn't bother brushing. His teeth were fine. I on the other hand have been a stickler for cleaning them, and they are totally knackered.

Perhaps you can get a layer of magic plaque that protects the teeth. Who knows. Mine just get worse. They used to feel dirty without a brush. Now they feel horrible without a brush and floss. Sometimes I just wish for all my teeth to be ripped out.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by ianlevesque on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:13AM (#12218520)
There is evidence that a particular species of bacteria causes decay and not everyone's mouth is dominated by that one - interesting stuff.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by bsenftner on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:44AM (#12218256)
The entire medical profession exists in a slipper slope due to the incredible volume of information a medical education requires. There is no way to validate, or even consider the validity of much of what is taught. Friends in med school went through personal crisis as they came to terms with their complete inability to verify the volume of all the information they were being taught. Trying to track down original resources and derive to current thinking proved too much for one friend, and she quit med school saying the layers of assumptions on tangential research then used a foundation for further research was way too thin, and she is now afraid of medical doctors, calling the profession dangerous blind parrots.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by merpnderp on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:07AM (#12217962)
This times 100, because when I asked my dentist if a water pick was superior or inferior to flossing, he didn't have a n answer.

Brushing and flossing are basic tenents of dentistry, and they haven't done the science?

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by amake on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:20AM (#12218065)
> basic tenants of dentistry

The word is "tenets".

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by MicroBerto on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:52AM (#12217546)
Dentists and dental hygienists look into tens of thousands of mouths over the courses of their careers. It's not difficult for them to see that patients who floss have far healthier smiles, in general.

That said, they should get more studies done.

You could also be a bad flosser, so even the study could be flawed.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by ptaipale on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:54AM (#12217560)
Again, there's the comparison of people who sell ice cream and see that when they sell more, there will be more drownings. Correlation does not imply causation.

I think it is quite obvious that people who floss also brush their teeth more regularly, and that is enough to give them healthier smiles.

(Regarding the benefits of flossing, I'm agnostic.)

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by MicroBerto on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:04AM (#12217617)
It's true that correlation does not imply causation, but you're still wrong from my experience with hygienists and dentists.

They definitely and easily see a difference seen between those who floss and brush and those who just brush.

Also, those who use Sonicare, especially when used properly around the gumlines, also tend to have healthier mouths than those who brush with an old brush.

The one thing that can throw a wrench in this whole thing is smoking. Smokers' mouths are disgusting basically no matter what.

Point being, I love research, but I trust those who put their hands in tens of thousands of mouths more than skeptics on ArsTechnica article comments.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by fnordfnordfnord on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @01:17PM (#12219644)
They look in your mouth and make assumptions that fit their preconceived notions. ie: "These teeth are in good shape, this person must've followed my advice on brushing and flossing!"
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by tdkl on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:34AM (#12217775)
You can brush your teeth like a moron 24/7, but you still won't reach between them and remove the long-term unhealthy plaque with it - it doesn't have to do anything with a profession, but it's a physical fact. Not to mention that brushing teeth ain't proper brushing as itself, since you can easily irreversibly damage and remove the gum if using wrong technique, pressure and hard brush.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by skolos on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:44AM (#12217827)
A => B does not mean !B => !A. In US (culturally): "Good dental hygiene" => "You floss". So dentists looking in your mouth can guess if you floss. However in Europe flossing is not as common and the link breaks. All dentists can say is if you take good care of your mouth, not if you floss or not.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by bzbarsky on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:26AM (#12218106)
> A => B does not mean !B => !A.

Uh... yes, it does. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by alejohausner on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:14AM (#12218016)
Sorry to be pedantic but A => B is equivalent to !B => !A . Still, I agree that US dentists overemphasize flossing.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by dharmach on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:50AM (#12217857)
Do people who floss regularly require fewer hygienist visits than who don't?
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mikeash on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:11AM (#12218504)
Many chiropractors will also claim that they can directly observe the much lower incidence of cancer and heart disease in their patients, but that doesn't make it true.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by MicroBerto on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @03:23PM (#12220726)
Not relevant given that chiropractors are making money off said claims, and dentists are not. Dentists stand to make less money when their patients take care of their oral health with something that costs literally a penny per day.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mikeash on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @04:06PM (#12221068)
People aren't automatically wrong just because they state something in their interest, nor are they right just because it's not. To me, the important difference between the two is that dentists can explain the basis of their recommendations in terms that make some sort of sense, whereas the mechanisms proposed by chiropractors are clearly nonsense.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by foldr on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:59AM (#12217585)
>healthier smiles

You mean healthier teeth?

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by MicroBerto on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:06AM (#12217624)
No. Gums (and possibly even tongue) are also part of your "smile". Could have said "mouth" but smile sounds better.

On the note of tongues, using a tongue scraper is a great way to get rid of nasty bacteria that causes bad breath and spreads to the rest of the teeth/gums. Cheap and effective.

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mcguire on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @09:31AM (#12217762)
I hate to do this, but...source?
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by MicroBerto on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @03:28PM (#12220760)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3898367/

Gist is that tongue cleaning yields less bacteria (that's one major cause of bad breath), but they still recommend both brushing and tongue cleaning since the reduction of tongue bacteria didn't reduce plaque. I never claimed that it did though.

Tongue scrapers are cheap and awesome. It's amazing what kind of disgusting stuff you'll scrape off that thing. I'll nearly guarantee you better breath unless you have some serious other problems, like periodontitis.

A second source on elderly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16677187

"These results suggest that tongue care is essential for preventing oral disease and needs to be part of any oral care programme in elderly people."

Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by mcguire on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @05:04PM (#12221502)
Thanks!
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by foldr on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:48AM (#12218281)
I think it's maybe an American/non-American thing. Talking about healthy smiles just sounds like weird ad-speak to me.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by learc83 on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @11:31AM (#12218658)
No I found it weird as well. We don't use that term. I've never heard anyone outside of a toothbrush/toothpaste ad say it.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by charlesism on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @08:50AM (#12217541)
Except even when we have researched something, it turns out we were wrong half of the time. We've only had a couple centuries since the Age of Enlightenment - we know practically nothing for sure (ie: well enough to take for granted). Unfortunately human nature seems to be vastly overconfident, so that's not a popular opinion.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by merpnderp on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @10:16AM (#12218026)
The science was settled on so many things. And then it wasn't.
Re:Federal health expert drop flossing from health guidelines by vorotato on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @02:42PM (#12220372)
Yeah but my gut tells me you're wrong.