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Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by wyager on Monday August 01, 2016 @03:50PM (#12205343)
I have a moral objection to the government using mechanized algorithms for e.g. sentencing, because the government is (or ought to be) accountable to the public, and must be able to justify all actions. Proprietary algorithms are particularly odious, because it is impossible to "justify" a decision even in the sense of tracing how the algorithm got to that point.

On the other hand, private individuals ought not to be accountable to anyone for their decisions (unless they contractually agreed to be), so I have no issue with e.g. a bank making loan decisions with a computer. After all, if the bank's algorithm is innacurate, this actually hurts their bottom line (because they either deny good customers or accept bad customers), so there is a strong incentive to have good algorithms. On the other hand, no such incentive exists for e.g. sentencing.

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by my_first_acct on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:58PM (#12205901)
Your argument in the second paragraph seems to be that arbitrary discrimination, for instance racial discrimination, is economically irrational; discriminatory companies will be out-competed by non-discriminatory companies.

But this ignores the historic reality of racial discrimination, which is that in some areas of the US, at some points in time, a significant number of white people were bigoted, and strongly (for no good reason) disliked black people. If you opened a restaurant that served people of all colors, your white customers would disappear. If your bank made loans to black people who wanted to buy homes in traditionally white neighborhoods, your white depositors would take their business elsewhere.

The civil rights laws of the 1960s made it economically feasible for businesses in these regions to stop discriminating; there were no longer any "white only" businesses for white bigots to patronize.

If you want to argue that in our more "enlightened" times, such anti-discrimination laws are no longer necessary, that's fine, but you will need to provide a certain amount of proof that things have changed.

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by yummyfajitas on Monday August 01, 2016 @07:39PM (#12206916)
You are missing a very important part of historic reality - pro-discrimination laws. Prior to the Civil Rights Act, we had a lot of local/state level economic regulation designed to prevent a race to the bottom (e.g. whites being forced to compete economically with colored folk) and to prevent greedy businessmen from acting against the public interest.
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by my_first_acct on Monday August 01, 2016 @09:40PM (#12207336)
I don't doubt that such laws existed, though I know very little about them. I might surmise that the "public interest" upheld by these laws was based on a rather restrictive definition of "public".

But I don't quite understand your point. My point was that if your goal is to end racial discrimination, free-market forces left to themselves are not sufficient. Sometimes legislation is needed to level the playing field and make non-discriminatory businesses economically viable.

Does your post relate to that, and I am just missing something? Or are you heading in a different direction?

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by yummyfajitas on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @06:40AM (#12208944)
My point was that if your goal is to end racial discrimination, free-market forces left to themselves are not sufficient.

Your point - or at least the argument you justify it with - doesn't really make any sense.

Lets consider a result of the same argument applied somewhere different:

"...a significant number of people were environmentalists, and strongly favor clean air. If you opened a factory that polluted or purchased supplies from one, your customers would disappear. If your bank made loans to polluters who wanted to finance new machinery, your depositors would take their business elsewhere."

Suddenly your mechanism for enforcing racism seems implausible, right? After all, if it worked, virtually every popular left wing economic regulation would be superfluous.

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by icebraining on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @03:42AM (#12208365)
I think the point is that we don't know if free-market forces are sufficient, because there wasn't a point in which they acted; there was always legislation pushing to one side or the other. Many of the Jim Crow[1] laws were only overturned after the Civil Rights Act, so the market went from mandatory discrimination to prohibition of discrimination without ever having a free phase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by Houshalter on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:32PM (#12205683)
I disagree. There's no evidence that human judges are less biased or more accurate. There are studies that have shown unattractive defendants get twice the sentences as a attractive ones. Not to mention race. There are studies that show judges give much harsher sentences right before lunch, when they are hungry.

Judges are not better at predicting recidivism than even very crude statistical algorithms. Sentences are basically arbitrary anyway.

Algorithmic sentencing may not be perfect. But humans are algorithms too, and they are way less perfect. Humans don't have transparency either. Unless you want to propose putting judges in MRI machines while they make sentences.

Anyway no one has seriously proposed that algorithms should decide sentencing. Only that they make recommended sentences to the judge. Who overrules the algorithm about 20% of the time.

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by swang on Monday August 01, 2016 @03:55PM (#12205390)
banks and other financial institutions have certainly been punished for their bad decisions in the past. Definitely don't see anything wrong with letting banks do whatever they want.
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by wyager on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:28PM (#12205641)
There's a difference between punishing people for bad actions and allowing the government to demand justification for every single action they take.
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by GFK_of_xmaspast on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:18PM (#12205564)
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by wyager on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:27PM (#12205632)
Yes, this was a viable solution back in the day because there was a 90% chance (made up number, but you get the idea) that denying someone from a redlined district was a good financial choice, and it was too expensive to do a detailed analysis to determine if an applicant was in the other 10%. With the automated credit checking and statistical analysis available these days, this isn't really an issue anymore. Banks can afford to do a more detailed check of each applicant, and they will, because failing to do so would be an economic disadvantage.
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by jonathankoren on Monday August 01, 2016 @05:25PM (#12206144)
> Yes, this was a viable solution back in the day because there was a 90% chance (made up number, but you get the idea) that denying someone from a redlined district was a good financial choice,

No That wasn't the reason why redlining existed. It existed because it was explicitly racist policy enabled directly from the National Housing Act of 1934[0] -- which was basically just codifying the existing racist attitudes of the day.[1] It stemmed from the racist idea that blacks were inherently bad neighbors in all ways you can imagine. To say this was merely a good enough heuristic, or even the result of government over reach is grossly misunderstand the historical context of these policies. These policies were not any more controversial than saying, we should not zone a preschool next to a oil refinery.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#History

[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...

Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by wyager on Tuesday August 02, 2016 @02:25AM (#12208122)
Your first link indicates that, as I said, the purpose of redlining was to direct wise economic decisions. Some researched (linked from wikipedia) suggests that the data may have been biased against black neighborhoods due to bias of the appraisers. It does not suggest that the purpose was to specifically screw over black people.
Re:Make Algorithms Accountable by Houshalter on Monday August 01, 2016 @04:25PM (#12205610)
But as he said, there is no reason for them to do such policies. They just hurt the bottom line and benefit their competitors. Statistical algorithms are not prejudiced. They just want to make the most accurate predictions possible.