News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by Angostura on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @07:43AM (#12164891)
> The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects.

I disagree strongly. If you were new to a machine, is there anything in the new Photos icon that tells you that it anything to do with images, photos or image manipulation? No.

The new icon for Pages is fine by the way,

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by yoz-y on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:52AM (#12165588)
But if you have never seen a camera then you would not know what the old icon means either. Yes there is a picture of a palm tree there but that could be anything (given that all icons are basically pictures of something).

Looking at my desk and my habits there are actually very few objects that I use for work most of it happens on screen. All in all, I think good icon design will become harder.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by aetherson on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @10:56AM (#12166051)
Can you find me some actual person who honestly does not know what a camera looks like? Not "someone who has never personally used a camera," not "I'm sure that somewhere out there there's someone who doesn't know what a camera looks like," not "in twenty years, maybe lots of people won't know what a camera looks like."

Someone that, right now, actually honestly has no idea what a camera looks like.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by yoz-y on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @11:04AM (#12166122)
Well. I can imagine that there must be some kids (let's say some 4-5 year olds) who already use tablets but they have never had a picture taken with anything else but a phone. I grant you that camera is not the best example since the phones have hardly caught up to good cameras and we will see them at least in some form for a long time.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by Retric on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @11:45AM (#12166422)
Camera's are on TV shows, books, and advertising so some 4-5 year old might not know it, but I suspect most would make the connection.

EX: http://www.buttonsoundbook.com/site/595626/product/ISBN%200-... (Recommended for ages 3 years and older.)

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by smhost on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @12:12PM (#12166639)
Images are everywhere, and images are reality (fuck off, René Magritte).

Also, young people don't live in some sort of post-technical isolation. When they go to school, they will probably see the photography students walking around with cameras. And kids still burn music CD's for each other. Because it's cute and sentimental, and it feels a lot better than texting someone a link to a playlist.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by dpark on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @10:52AM (#12166006)
> But if you have never seen a camera

Who are these supposed people who are buying Macs but have never seen a camera? This set of people must be miniscule if not empty.

Cameras are still in use, even if most people have replaced them with smartphones. Walk around any city and you'll see gobs of people taking selfies on their phones, but you'll also see a decent number of people carrying dedicated cameras.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by emodendroket on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @02:15PM (#12167650)
I'd even go so far as to say you're more likely to see them than a microphone, which no one (as far as I know, anyway) is arguing to obsolete.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by yoz-y on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @11:07AM (#12166148)
Eventually there will be and the icon will have to change then, but I do grant you that now is not the time.

Now the question is: should the icons represent something "iconic" or something that most people use?

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by dpark on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @11:22AM (#12166259)
> should the icons represent something "iconic" or something that most people use?

I don't know what you mean by "iconic". If you mean "abstract and without independently-identifiable meaning", then I think in general, no. Icons should be immediately identifiable when possible. The overlapping rainbow paint chips that make up the current photos icon seems utterly meaningless. The camera was meaningful. A stack of photos would be meaningful. An abstracted "photo" like Windows 10 uses (and like Google uses in the sidebar of their online photos app) would be meaningful.

For the record, I think Android/Google's photos icon is also utterly meaningless to most people. I think it's supposed to represent a camera aperture (same as Apple's icon?), but most people probably don't know what a mechanical aperture is.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by yoz-y on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @11:46AM (#12166427)
By iconic I meant represented by an object associated with an activity that has the most meaning. (I have some difficulty phrasing this)

For example, in the current world maybe 10% of the people are taking pictures with actual cameras but we still represent the camera as a "box with a huge lens". Few people use land lines but the phone icon is still a banana. To send and e-mail in general we use an envelope but we send way more electronic messages than snail mail.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by dpark on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @12:15PM (#12166664)
In that case, yes, I think icons should be "iconic" when possible. At this point, the "most used" version of basically every app is unsurprisingly an app. The phone app is used more than landline phones (or dumb cell phones). The camera app is used more than dedicated cameras. Word processors are probably used more than paper and pen.

So you either use something "iconic", or every icon is just a small screenshot, or I guess you make something up that is meaningless.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by mmustapic on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @08:12AM (#12165012)
> is there anything in the new Photos icon that tells you that it anything to do with images, photos or image manipulation

Yes, it says "Photos" below it

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by gimboland on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @08:14AM (#12165026)
Cool, so we don't need icons at all!
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by jrockway on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @08:16AM (#12165038)
Indeed, icons are unnecessary. They're there to fill space with colors, which people like. Full = good. Color = happy. good + happy = sales.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by johnmarius on Thursday July 28, 2016 @10:45PM (#12184757)
Is happiness unnecessary? Doesn't it matter what people like? I don't mean the masses, I mean people who evolved to navigate meatspace. Shouldn't designs make people happy?
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by emodendroket on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @02:16PM (#12167660)
I think the idea that they make no difference to usability sounds quite wrong.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by 56k on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @08:56AM (#12165248)
It's quicker to glance at icons and spot the app right away than not read each and every item in a list.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by jrockway on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @10:10AM (#12165710)
Anyway, I think the idea is to get some visual cue that you're about to tap the right icon. You know where you put your apps on your home screen, so the colors or wahtever lead you there faster. And the icon provides a large touch target.

Going back to the original article, it doesn't really matter what the icon looks like, as long as it's unique. You're not looking at each icon and asking yourself "is this a camera?" to get to the Photos app. You know it's a circular array of colors, and your finger goes there.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by arclyte on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @04:08PM (#12168415)
I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned this earlier. Everyone's arguing about what image the icon contains and thinking of imaginary folks who are using computers for the first time after coming off a ship from a lonely desert island.

Back in 'teh day' when my icons were all cutesy skeuomorphs, my computer came with maybe a dozen apps and most of them were on my desktop. Now, I have over a hundred sitting in my global Apps folder alone - never mind user Apps, sub folders, etc.

This gets compounded even more on phones - on my iPhone, I've accidentally placed 1Password next to the Settings app - both have a grey background with a circular center. Settings' center is grey gears, 1Passwords is a blue ring with a keyhole. On examination, they're not similar at all, but I can't even begin to tell you how many times I clicked on when, meaning to click the other - even _knowing_ the differences and kicking myself each time.

I think a lot of what the designers are trying to do is create an icon that stands out visually, and is easily found from amongst a large set of other icons, rather than trying to impress upon us what its functionality is from a metaphor.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by dpark on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @10:54AM (#12166026)
> You know where you put your apps on your home screen

Really? Because when I used an iPhone, I most definitely didn't know where most of my apps' icons were. I knew most of them on the first screen and the rest of the screens were a mix of random stuff.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by ridgeguy on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:20AM (#12165371)
YMMV.

I'm far faster at picking text labels from a list than picking the icons. I see the text label as an icon.

The text "icon" is simple and unchanging. I can pick it out much faster than funny pictograms that change with each OS version.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by JadeNB on Friday July 29, 2016 @04:45PM (#12189850)
> The text "icon" is simple and unchanging. I can pick it out much faster than funny pictograms that change with each OS version.

Tell that to my muscle memory that types ⌘A > iP for iPhoto and ⌘A > iCal for iCalendar.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by thedaemon on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:37AM (#12165485)
Perhaps for you. But for me, icons are cryptic. I can glance at a list of words and find exactly what I'm looking for. My brain is wired to read and pick out words much faster than little drawings.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by Angostura on Thursday July 28, 2016 @08:05AM (#12179679)
Ah, a true advocate for the CLI, I see. GUIs - who needs them?
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by jstru on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:00AM (#12165269)
No it doesn't.
Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:40AM (#12165507)
Mine says "Photos" above it.

But what has actually happened is a mess of inconsistent designs. Older apps still use skeuomorphism. Newer apps copy the flat look.

Skeuomorphism implemented a design principle - discoverability. You could argue with the choices made for specific icons, but there was a consistent goal - to make the OS as usable as possible.

The flat look is an anti-pattern - fashion over discoverability. The point seems to be to allow Sir Jony to impress everyone with his aesthetic skillz. User experience has become secondary to internal politics.

That's a huge problem for a company like Apple, because it'a fundamental shift in focus.

And there have been obvious effects. Watch isn't doing brilliantly, precisely because the user experience is nothing special. iOS is creaking under the weight of new features apparently added with no overall strategy, many of which remain invisible to users because the literally never find them.

MacOS is going the same way. Some of the new features are certainly welcome. But the Apple UX generally is suffering badly - from bugs, from questionable design choices, from popular products like Logic and FCP that have been cut down, then more or less abandoned.

There's no one in charge to obsessively fine tune the conflicting needs of product momentum, reliability, UX, and aesthetics.

Jobs was very good at that. Cook doesn't even seem to realise there's an issue.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by ozim on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @09:14AM (#12165340)
Yeah you can click it and see what happens, that is what I do when I am on new system. Maybe my grandparents would be scared of clicking some icons. Current new users are kids which are less scared of clicking around and getting to know what this thing does.

Icon can help later in quickly locating this program, but I do not really care what it is. Does firefox, chrome icon or internet explorer show you that it will display websites? Internet explorer icon became "Internet" icon for a lot non technical users I think.

Re:The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline by freyr on Tuesday July 26, 2016 @02:39PM (#12167838)
I agree that the current photos icon is awful, and I actually find myself unable to quickly locate the photos app on iOS. Game Center is pretty bad too, but I never open Game Center.

The rest of the aticle's arguments seem like personal, subjective distaste for flat/minimal design and a yearning for the good ol' days of skeumorphism.