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Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by bwilliams18 on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:00PM (#12071951)
CEOs have way more latitude than most think. There is an incredibly easy argument to make in this case: paying employees more means you get better employees, and more productive employees, thus you drive more shareholder value.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by komali2 on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:28PM (#12072175)
What boggles my mind is that this is just one of many cases of provable long-term return. It's trickier for HR type investments (measuring the ROI on increases wages, or putting a pool table in the break room), but another example is most governments' refusal to believe that education has a massive ROI. Despite the fact that we have economic scientists repeatedly demonstrating with overwhelming evidence that these types of long-term investments have massive ROI, people can't overcome their natural short sightedness.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by caseysoftware on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:51PM (#12072334)
> another example is most governments' refusal to believe that education has a massive ROI

Any education or education in specific fields or courses of study?

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by mjevans on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:36PM (#12072752)
As far as ANY education goes, successfully providing children with a means of being a productive member of society provides them with 'things to loose' and thus they are far less likely to be a 'non-productive' as either a flat resource drain, or worse, as someone forced to find methods of employment that drain resources from others (such as crime).

I suspect you'd get the most RoI on education related to what the economy needed at the time. However if the market is compensating employees fairly* then students will likely pick what enjoy doing which also best fits the needs of the economy (as dictated by the benefits of the job).

*For example, when you have to hire employees from out of nation requiring that they make 2X or more of the median pay for the job in that area, and also allowing this valued employee to freely take any other similar offer (2X median pay in the area of the job) as well as have a fast track to citizenship.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by st3v3r on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:42PM (#12073252)
"I suspect you'd get the most RoI on education related to what the economy needed at the time. However if the market is compensating employees fairly* then students will likely pick what enjoy doing which also best fits the needs of the economy (as dictated by the benefits of the job)."

The problem being that much education has a minimum of 4 year lag time. So one could go into a degree program when the market is hot, only to see it cool off by the time they graduate.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by tomcam on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:17PM (#12072585)
> provable long-term return

Citation? As I understand it this company is not doing specactularly (revenue up, but profit down a bit), but, more important, employee happiness is down to pre-$70K levels.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/05/26/does-70000-mi...

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by ctrl-j on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:50PM (#12073328)
The article you linked provides the apt justification of the happiness survey. The very next paragraph gives many examples that show that the employees are living arguably better lives.

So, at the cost of growing a little less quickly than they might have, the employees that are building the company up are enjoying a drastically improved quality of life.

The company isn't failing, the investors aren't losing their shirts, and the human beings who are making the day-to-day operation of the company possible, are better off. Sounds like a win-fucking-win to me.

> Employee turnover fell 19% last year compared to the average of the past six years. Gravity has been flooded with 30,000 applications, up from an average 3,000 or so a year. A monthly company survey that gauges employee happiness found a bump just after the announcement but then a drop to pre-$70,000 levels – consistent with a widely-held theory that people return to a baseline level of happiness despite positive or negative life events.

Still, Pirkle says the raises have allowed employees to move closer to the office and cut commute times, and plan for the future without living paycheck to paycheck. Retirement account contributions are up 130%, more employees are buying first homes and 10 are expecting, up from a typical zero to two each year.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by cbHXBY1D on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:15PM (#12072084)
It's insane that we live and work within a system where you can be sued as a CEO for that argument.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by maerF0x0 on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:19PM (#12072112)
We live in a system that allows (afaik, IANAL) a law suit for anything. Afterall, if you have a complaint you need to be heard and due process needs to explore the legitimacy of your complaint.

What's insane is some of the lawsuits that succeed.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by bko on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:28PM (#12072179)
If you paid employees all of the companies earnings you wouldn't make any money. If you paid employees nothing, you wouldn't be making any money as they would stop working. If you pay somewhere in the middle, you would likely make money. So there exists a point where paying workers more will result in less money.

If he made a change on compensation not based on the interest of the company, then the other shareholders should be allowed a say.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by lukeschlather on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:50PM (#12072331)
Nothing you said is entirely true. It's certainly true if you look at it from a quarterly-earnings perspective. But there's no reason that a company paying out 100% of earnings to its employees can't outperform a company paying out less year-over-year.

You do need committed investors, but even if you have investors cashing out it may be better for the company that they leave when you look at things on a 5-year or longer timescale.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by jasode on Monday July 11, 2016 @05:27PM (#12074825)
>Nothing you said is entirely true.

It's interesting that you critique gp's comment for being binary, but you also make an absolutist comment yourself by stating "there's no reason" in:

>But there's no reason that a company paying out 100% of earnings to its employees can't outperform a company paying out less year-over-year. ... it may be better for the company that they leave when you look at things on a 5-year or longer timescale.

Instead of "no reasons", there are several reasons why a company paying out 100% of the profits to employees for 60 months will make it underperform another company that retains some of its earnings. A company can use its retained profits to spend on future expansion, speculative research & development, acquiring a company, etc. In many industry segments, if the company doesn't grow, it becomes irrelevant and dies. (At that point, the jobless employees get 100% of $0 profits.)

I can't think of any example in business history of a company that paid 100% profits to employees and therefore had $0 in retained earnings year-after-year ... outperform its competition.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by bko on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:01PM (#12072947)
I can rephrase that there is some point X where X is the amount you pay employees, such that you don't make any money on T time scale. You can't say that you always get better productivity as you pay more and more. There comes a point where paying them more does not improve their efficiency or your business enough to justify the higher salaries being paid out.

I'm not saying that paying min 70k is beyond this point where paying them won't help you on T time scale, but it needs to be evaluated. You can't just assume that paying someone more will be more than made up for in increased long term efficiency.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by TheCoelacanth on Monday July 11, 2016 @07:43PM (#12075651)
He wasn't. He was sued for supposedly paying himself too much and misusing his company credit card.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by crispyambulance on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:55PM (#12072907)
Yep, "shareholder value" can be taken to mean all kinds of things-- long and short term.

The CEO may very well be able to make a case for higher wage workers even in the "greed-above-all" context of shareholders.

FWIW, 70K "min wage" might not mean so much if most employees are line workers and there are contractors for the support jobs (eg IT-dept, janitorial, secretarial, etc).

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by dominotw on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:12PM (#12072542)
> paying employees more means you get better employees, and more productive employees, thus you drive more shareholder value.

Isn't more driven by market forces of supply and demand. Why should CEO make his business to interfere with systems that are in place to deal with this.

A more convincing argument is 'publicity'.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Alupis on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:52PM (#12072342)
> paying employees more means you get better employees, and more productive employees, thus you drive more shareholder value

Except in this case, quite the opposite happened. All of the company's best employees quit and walked away within a few month's time.

This left only the newest hires running the ship - collecting, in some cases, more salary than the seasoned crew that had been there from the start and had to work their way up the pay ladder.

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-price-gravity-payments-em...

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by yardie on Monday July 11, 2016 @07:45PM (#12075657)
Both the BI article and the NYT article it cites appears to be only able to quote the same 2 people. Now I know BI has a pro company/anti-worker agenda and I know NYT can be neutral on these matters. What I can't find in either are any numbers.

So I looked at Glassdoor[0] and the trend looks like after 8/2015, when this article was published, there is a sharp uptick in employee reviews. So far it appears almost everyone is happy with the change (customers, employees, and management).

[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gravity-Payments-Reviews-E...

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by __jal on Monday July 11, 2016 @05:45PM (#12074966)
An employee that quits is clearly not the best employee. They were incapable of changing directions with the company.

If "the best" employee in a company quit because they were philosophically opposed to a new client's business, most would cock an eyebrow, think they were inflexible or committed, and move on. I find it extremely interesting that instead, a philosophical disagreement about cow-orkers' salaries is apparently considered very differently by some.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by lbn on Monday July 11, 2016 @06:11PM (#12075186)
I would imagine the best employees quit because they thought it was unfair to be paid the same or almost the same as people who know and contribute a lot less. It would have been better to just pay everyone above the market by some percentage but this would not make for a sexy headline.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by yardie on Monday July 11, 2016 @07:48PM (#12075675)
The best employees wouldn't give a shit what someone else is getting paid as long as they are being fairly compensated. You can always ask for more money, if you're as good as you claim you are you will definitely get it. I'm going to go with my gut and say this is just crabby, bitter griping from a few ex-employees.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by __jal on Monday July 11, 2016 @06:42PM (#12075380)
I imagine you're correct about why they quit. I don't see why that has anything to do with what I wrote, any more than I understand the dig at companies seeking publicity. (What could possibly be next? A pop star doing drugs?)
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by st3v3r on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:44PM (#12073274)
Sounds to me like those weren't the "best employees", but rather just the most petty and jealous.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Pinatubo on Monday July 11, 2016 @03:47PM (#12073831)
I don't think it's petty or jealous to seek employment at a place where hard work and dedication are rewarded.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by st3v3r on Monday July 11, 2016 @06:15PM (#12075204)
That's not what they were doing, though. It absolutely is petty and jealous to quit because someone else got a raise, and now you're not making more than them.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Alupis on Monday July 11, 2016 @06:23PM (#12075266)
The folks that left were the folks that built the company. The new hires came in, and promptly got a massive pay raise to match the most senior employees, even though their contributions were non existent at that time.

The CEO got really good personal PR. The new hires got huge raises. The employees that had toiled long hours and built the platform got nothing.

That's not somehow petty, nor jealous. Let's not demonize the employees that decided they were not going to be part of that company anymore - a company that showed it wasn't going to reward hard work and dedication. Most of us would have made the same choice.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by yardie on Monday July 11, 2016 @07:53PM (#12075698)
You got all of this from that same article? It doesn't mention anything about long hours or toiling. All it says is they were there for a while and were mad that new hires were getting the same pay.

No one bats an eyelid when a company hires a new unicorn, 10x developer. It's equally possible that raising the salary also allowed them to hire 10x employees and the old hires were feeling threatened so left.

We work with data, if I don't feel I'm compensated fairly I write a letter complete with numbers saying what my renumeration should be. And forward that to the manager and HR.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Alupis on Monday July 11, 2016 @11:29PM (#12076554)
> You got all of this from that same article

We're discussing previous articles about this company.

> No one bats an eyelid when a company hires a new unicorn, 10x developer. It's equally possible that raising the salary also allowed them to hire 10x employees and the old hires were feeling threatened so left.

That's not what happened here. No "10x developer" was hired. It was literally just a huge pay raise for the newest employees, and shafting the ones that had been there for years.

It turned from a merit-based system into one that valued everyone equally - and while this sounds great on the surface, not everyone contributes equally. Those that built the platform really felt like they got the short end of the stick. New hires, who put in none of the effort to get the startup up and running, had none of the knowledge nor domain expertise, suddenly were earning as much as the most senior engineers.

Not to mention the entire thing reeked at the time as one big PR stunt, since it didn't "just happen" one day, but rather the media was notified and it turned into a big fuss. It seems the stench had some credence given this lawsuit.

> We work with data, if I don't feel I'm compensated fairly I write a letter complete with numbers saying what my renumeration should be. And forward that to the manager and HR

This statement seems like hyperbole to me. I imagine few managers respond well to threats or begging via email about salary. Nevermind pointing to what other people get in a market for compensation is a terrible way to value yourself. You should start these discussions with how much value you bring to the table, not what others at other companies may or may not bring to theirs.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by st3v3r on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:42PM (#12087582)
"That's not what happened here. No "10x developer" was hired. It was literally just a huge pay raise for the newest employees, and shafting the ones that had been there for years."

No, it wasn't. There was no "shafting" involved. Phrasing it that way shows that you're just as petty and jealous as those others. Someone else getting paid well does not take away from your worth.

"It turned from a merit-based system"

Payroll has almost never been a merit-based system, so any arguments about that are deeply flawed.

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Retra on Monday July 11, 2016 @08:46PM (#12075935)
It is petty. If you've worked somewhere for ten years, you've already made 10 times what the new hires will have made in their first year. So for your ten years of contributions, you have ten years of back-pay that the new hires don't have a dime of.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by st3v3r on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:40PM (#12087565)
It is entirely petty, and I will demonize those who are so caught up in what others are making to the point where they'd rather quit than work for a company where everyone is being paid well.
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by e40 on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:12PM (#12072545)
You know this now?
Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by Alupis on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:15PM (#12073041)
I thought it was common knowledge, since it made plenty of ripples when the news broke. Here's one article from a quick google search:

http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-price-gravity-payments-em...

Re:Seattle C.E.O. Who Promised $70,000 Salaries Wins Suit Fi... by thrkw123456789 on Monday July 11, 2016 @01:15PM (#12072569)
Citation?