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Re:UK votes to leave EU by rvanmil on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:15AM (#11967777)
I don't think an undemocratic government is required to achieve freedom of movement across the EU states. The problem however is that this is the only choice we have right now (and I sincerely hope the brexit will lead to a more democratic EU, instead of a collapse). Personally I think an undemocratic central government limits your freedom a lot more than any other benefits that might come from supporting such a government.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by etatoby on Friday June 24, 2016 @05:05AM (#11968040)
> I sincerely hope the brexit will lead to a more democratic EU, instead of a collapse

I really hope so. Right now most decisions are taken by the Commission and the ECB, which are neither directly nor indirectly elected by the people. A bit more democracy would help here.

Although I'm a firm believer that too much democracy is bad: see the topic of the day, where old and/or provincial people (fact) just voted hundreds of rights away from the younger generation and from urban people.

I'm sure our media will widely publicize any and all troubles brits will face in the coming months / years by not being part of our union and this will hopefully help reduce support for the most troublesome nationalist parties.

On the other hand, the UK never really played fair with the rest of us, what with keeping their own coin and having "tax haven" rates. So I'm not entirely sorry that they left. I'm sad for their younger people, of which I personally met a few in many occasions. This was a decision made against their will, which is never a good thing.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by toyg on Friday June 24, 2016 @05:38AM (#11968220)
> most decisions are taken by the Commission

Most decisions were. Post-2009, legislation has to go through Parliament. The Commission remains the initial proposal engine, and makes executive decisions on some things, but in reality most of the urgent matters are dealt with by the Council, i.e. the elected heads of state. Commissioners these days are just people saying "wouldn't be nice if we did this and that?" and then elected MEPs hammer out details and eventually decide whether it looks sensible or not. A lot of Directives are actually fairly-generic guidelines anyway and can be "interpreted" at local level.

> and the ECB

Central bank independence is widely considered a pillar of economic stability. I have my problems with the ECB (mainly that they are fairly powerless in real terms), but not about being nominated vs elected.

So uhm, this trope that the EU is full of "unelected" people is not really up to date, although it was true in the past.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by etatoby on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:13AM (#11968431)
You are right. I stand corrected.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Chris2048 on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:01AM (#11969794)
> This was a decision made against their will

Are you talking about those too young to vote?

Re:UK votes to leave EU by tiatia on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:03AM (#11968362)
"Right now most decisions are taken by the Commission and the ECB, which are neither directly nor indirectly elected by the people. A bit more democracy would help here."

The ECB was modeled more or less after the German Central Bank who made the German Mark a huge success. There are good reasons to NOT make the central Bank "democratic" or a toy of politicians.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by mtanski on Friday June 24, 2016 @07:01AM (#11968730)
A great example of what you get when financial decisions made at the current political whim is the looming unfunded pension crisis in Chicago / Illinois, New Jersey. There are a lot of places right behind those as well. Super easy to make promises for when you no longer be around to deliver on... Esp if you need votes now.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by pessimizer on Friday June 24, 2016 @08:25AM (#11969185)
Chicago and Illinois are terrible examples. Their collapse is due purely to graft and deals between insiders, and there has never been a change in whim. Financial decisions were made by unaccountable appointees for the benefit of their friends and relatives.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by tomp on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:28AM (#11968530)
Funny enough, the Bundesbank has been criticising the ECB pretty harshly recently.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by danmaz74 on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:33AM (#11967858)
The EU "central government" is made of the union of the governments of the constituent states of the EU. I'm absolutely in favor of directly electing a EU government instead of using the intergovernmental approach, but who will convince state governments to accept that?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by dingaling on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:33AM (#11967855)
European citizens can already move freely between Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein which are members of the EEA, but not the EU.

There are also significant movement and trade freedoms with Switzerland, which isn't even a member of the EEA.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by Ressuder on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:40AM (#11967892)
Being a part of the EEA and not the EU basically means that you accept most rules from the EU while not being able to influence anything.

The UK really has put themselves in a bad situation here. The main reason people voted to leave was immigration and to "take back power Brussels" and because they were convinced by the campaign that they could still get all the benefits of EU if they left. How will these people feel when they realise that they're going to need to join EEA which will mean the same level of immigration and less political power?

Re:UK votes to leave EU by xorcist on Friday June 24, 2016 @05:14AM (#11968093)
I've hard it said that Norway would easily be in the top EU countries when it comes to speedily and effectively implementing EU directives in law, if they qualified for the list. On the other hand, they remain outside the widely impopular agriculture system. Those things really highlight that "leave" in itself means nothing. Would the EU skeptics of the country be content if the UK only left the EU itself and remained with all the agreements?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by pbhjpbhj on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:37AM (#11968580)
A higher level of immigration potentially. The UK is outside the Schengen Area so has more controlled on immigration and movement.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by tremon on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:54AM (#11968685)
I don't really understand the immigration situation. I know "uncontrolled EU migration" was the focal point of the leave campaign, but if the UK has not been part of the Schengen Area, then what controls did the UK lack?

Also, I thought the way immigration numbers were used in the debate was appalling. If I remember correctly:

- The UK deals with 300,000 immigrants per year, of which 50% from inside the EU.

- The immigration target set by the government was 20,000 per year.

- That means the UK government was already allowing 150,000 of non-EU migrants in the country. And for these migrants, the UK does have full control.

How come everyone in the UK accepted this rationale as a valid argument against the EU, instead of a failure of the UK government?

Re:UK votes to leave EU by taejo on Friday June 24, 2016 @07:51AM (#11969009)
They had no control at all over EU migration, basically. They are not part of the Schengen Area, which means that they have their own visa regime (with respect to non-EU nationals), and they have systematic border controls (passport checks) at their borders (air, train and ferry terminals, since they don't have a Schengen-Area land border). The main content of the Schengen Agreement is the removal of systematic border controls.

The free movement of EU persons (and their families) holds in the whole EEA, independent of the Schengen Agreement. There are also EU rules about where refugees are settled, but the UK already had an opt-out from those.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by ricardobeat on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:10AM (#11970346)
Re-read the comment you replied to. If the UK already allows 150k non-EU immigrants to come in, the EU is not the problem?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by taejo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:32PM (#11971140)
I was responding to this:

> if the UK has not been part of the Schengen Area, then what controls did the UK lack?

Re:UK votes to leave EU by sievebrain on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:32AM (#11967847)
Yeah that's something missed by so many (and hardly pointed out by Leave - what a crap campaign).

The EU is not the only way to get the good bits of European integration. It badly needs some competition. I wish the UK would create a competitor to the EU and start advertising the new union to EU member states.