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Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:55PM (#11966204)
Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Consultant32452 on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:02AM (#11966245)
Is populism supposed to be bad? I just looked up the definition to make sure and it's basically the principle that ordinary people should have control over government rather than political insiders and wealthy elite. That sounds like democracy to me. Is there an aspect I'm missing?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by mraison on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:10AM (#11966309)
From Wikipedia:

Populism is a political position which holds that the virtuous citizens are being mistreated by a small circle of elites, who can be overthrown if the people recognize the danger and work together. The elites are depicted as trampling in illegitimate fashion upon the rights, values, and voice of the legitimate people.

The notion itself is quite subjective of course, but it is definitely very different from "democracy".

Re:UK votes to leave EU by sbmassey on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:48AM (#11966593)
It seems to be a pretty common stance taken by democratic political parties across history.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ionised on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:14AM (#11968435)
Sounds like populism is just the recognition of oligarchy.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by mhuffman on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:58AM (#11967672)
This seems to objectively be the case in the US, right?[1]

[1] http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...

Re:UK votes to leave EU by nikdaheratik on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:04AM (#11966707)
It is just as bad as oligarchy if left unchecked. There is such a thing as a tyranny of the majority. Or if you want to just look at the politics, if you tick off the wealthy elite or make it too difficult to do business, you end up with less control over things that matter since you're either poor because all the business you ticked off went somewhere else, or basically a colony state as the important decisions are made elsewhere.

The only reason why it seems more "democratic" is because for most of human history, the wealthy elite had way to much power compared to everyone else.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by elthran on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:08AM (#11966284)
For me, the downside of populism is that the political insiders and wealthy elite just so happen to be the people who actually understand how economies and governments and international agreements work.

The common man may think he knows everything, but he really doesn't.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by badloginagain on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:30AM (#11966456)
That and the populist vote doesn't vote rationally. They vote emotionally. This puts you in a state where charismatic leaders will appeal to and exploit emotional triggers in people.

Historical evidence suggests that such leaders tend to move towards to political extremes.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by Clubber on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:22AM (#11966391)
Agreed, but whether or not they manipulate the economy to the benefit of the citizens is another story.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by mhuffman on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:00AM (#11967686)
Right, they have no incentive other than to make themselves better off. And it shows[1].

[1] http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...

Re:UK votes to leave EU by vacri on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:17AM (#11966770)
Populism rewards short-term thinking at the expense of long-term results, because the common person isn't always aware of the deeper issues in a given field. Put another way, would expect the average person in the street to have an informed opinion on the details of [banking|medical|energy|transport|agriculture] industries?

We already know how easy it is for yellow journalism to sway popular opinion; expecting direct democracy to be able to deal with the subtle nuances of governing a millions-strong society is nice in theory, but simply isn't practical.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by stepanhruda on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:07AM (#11966725)
When you describe it this way, it sounds great. In practice populists are frowned up because they end up telling people nice things they want to hear, but aren't true or are appealing to their more basic instincts.

Imo it goes down to what your message is - both Trump ans Sanders are populists.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by mmbaghdad on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:06AM (#11966273)
It is supposed to, if you add fear mongering to it. Dictators usually believe in it, that's why they try to control every news outlet or public space there is and spread their propaganda
Re:UK votes to leave EU by jernfrost on Friday June 24, 2016 @05:15AM (#11968096)
Yes populism is bad. That is what has destroy South America with people like Hugo Chavez e.g. Populism is about shameless pandering to the emotions of the masses, rather than having a grown up talk about the nuances of real life and real politics.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by oblio on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:48AM (#11967952)
Democracy involves thinking about the citizens, both short term and long term.

Populism is just catering to the short term needs, even basic ones, just to get attention/votes/support.

Populist example from Romania: get an IMF loan in order to increase pensions. Text-book example of shooting yourself in the foot long term, but a very popular action among pensioners, which are a large voting demographic.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lumberjack on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:02AM (#11967345)
It is bad because it never ends up being the case that the populist leader just does what the people want. The populist leader is always an opportunist. I cite pretty much ever single case in history as backup of my claim.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:59PM (#11966227)
To be frank the EU was built on power centralization and socialism as key principles. It's been what, 15 years+ since the Eurozone and the Economy is still doing as bad as before, if not worse for most member states. Hardly a success model by ANY measure.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ohthehugemanate on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:13AM (#11967095)
I'm sorry to directly contradict you, but that's just factually untrue.

The EU was built on an explicit policy of focus on small treaties, and avoiding creating transnational institutions. This was specifically to ensure that member states kept as much sovereignty as possible. It's why even the largest EU institutions are generally incomplete and only operate with the ongoing cooperation of all the member states. Hence monetary union without fiscal union. Hence the lack of police and military cooperation. Hence no central border or immigration control. These are key functions of government, which the EU has never been able to centralize because of the practice of "small steps."

Its the way the US was supposed to work, only with even less power in the federal government. European federalism is free trade attached to a foreign policy body and a supranational court.

The EU is more than 50 years old, not 15. it was established as a free trade zone first, to "make war unthinkable and materially impossible" - in 1958. That's the core of the EU, and it works very well for the members by every material measure. I don't know what makes you think otherwise. The recession has created a growing movement of Euroskepticism, but that's associated with the extreme political right wing, and remains a minority - outside of Britain, it seems.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:03AM (#11966253)
How does anyone expect growth in a developed country? You can't free market your way out of it without sacrificing your social obligations and protections.

What is success? High YOY GDP growth? Or quality of life? Look to America (my country) with very limited worker protections, almost no social safety nets, extremely high income and wealthy inequality; we still only eek out only ~2% GDP growth, and that's on the backs of the poor.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:10AM (#11966304)
There are many measures of success, and if you want to talk about quality of life, by all means look at how bad the discontentment with the EU has been growing over the years, among all member states. Keeping everyone in the EU is not sustainable.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:15AM (#11966338)
Show me a model you'd replicate. I will argue that Britain was the model I'd replicate. Was.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:22AM (#11966393)
I'm not playing politics, but in my take any movement that distances you from a remote central power is positive in the end. Freedom should have been the basis for the EU, not Socialism. We all know where it's headed now.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:24AM (#11966406)
Is the supposed freedom worth it if your country's economy suffers? I'm not asking for political reasons either, I'm talking purely economical.

Freedom has a cost, and it seems that the UK populace who voted to leave does not fully understand that cost.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:27AM (#11966438)
Freedom is an investment. Of course the UK will be worse in short run, and I'm sure EU members will poit fingers and say "we told you so!". But in the long run they will be better off than the rest of Europe, where structural changes have proven impossible. Such decisions take dozens of years to give fruit.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:28AM (#11966445)
What metric would you use to measure if the UK was more successful out of the EU then in? I'm looking for an objective metric that can be measured.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:51AM (#11966621)
GDP's not perfect, but that should hint at a number of things. Look also at Organic Inflation, and Debt Ratio. Unless the UK governments to come take much worse decisions than the EU bureaucrats, it should not be too difficult to do better.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by mhuffman on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:06AM (#11967734)
Median wages up, economic inequality down, investments in social stability programs (retirement, healthcare, education) up.

In the US, those are all going the opposite directions.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by mhuffman on Friday June 24, 2016 @04:04AM (#11967718)
Your economy can boom with all the citizens suffering. For example, if average wages go down, and the rich get richer, the overall economy grows, but is of little consequence to most people.

When countries grow powerful, they begin to forget about the "socio" part of socioeconomics, and just look at dollars.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by misnome on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:37AM (#11966882)
So, every town and village should build a wall and secede?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Zikes on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:29AM (#11966451)
If you replicated Britain it'd just vote itself out again.

Clearly a very, very large portion of the country felt underserved by the model.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:37AM (#11966516)
Britain is not the first country to be led into darkness by fear.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:03AM (#11966697)
Funny how such decisions always assume Fear and never Englightment.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:22AM (#11966797)
I have yet to see any data that the Brexit is a net positive for the economical wellbeing of the British people. That is not what I'd define as "Enlightened".
Re:UK votes to leave EU by anon4this1 on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:18AM (#11967430)
People are sick of biased crap and vague economic theory being touted as data telling them how good immigration and free trade is for them, while in their own lives only seeing things getting worse.

Nassim taleb sums it up well: http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/15/nassim-taleb-the-global-re...

Re:UK votes to leave EU by enraged_camel on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:56AM (#11966996)
No one has any data one way or the other, and will not for at least ten years. The UK entered uncharted territory. Your guess regarding what the future holds is about as good as anyone's, including those of the experts.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by dropit_sphere on Saturday June 25, 2016 @12:52PM (#11976952)
There's more to wellbeing than (relatively) short-term economic wellbeing.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by WillPostForFood on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:58AM (#11967004)
You can't free market your way out of it

I'd argue you might be able to have a generous social safety net if you adopted a high tax, low regulation approach.

EU is high tax high regulation, US is medium tax medium regulation.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by baddox on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:34AM (#11966497)
> What is success?

How about measuring by success by the preferences of the people in the country? Apparently a majority of UK voters preferred leaving.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by imtringued on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:42AM (#11967233)
In that case WW2 was a fantastical success...
Re:UK votes to leave EU by tremon on Friday June 24, 2016 @11:09AM (#11970339)
"in the country"?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:38AM (#11966522)
Because emotions aren't an objective measure of quality of life? Yeah! Success! We're out of the EU! Will they still be thrilled when trade dwindles and their social safety nets are cut?

You can educate someone. You can't fix willful ignorance.

> Gotta hand it to stupid people. They may not understand nuance, secondary effects, or the long term, but dammit, they know how to vote.

https://twitter.com/rolldiggity/status/746195269390196736

Re:UK votes to leave EU by baddox on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:08AM (#11966731)
Isn't "objective quality of life" a semantic contradiction? Whose lives are you talking about, and who is a better judge of a person's quality of life than that very person?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by xiaoma on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:21AM (#11966387)
If by "developed", the implication is "done making technological progress" then yes, economic progress will be very slow.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by panic on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:05AM (#11966262)
The worldwide economy isn't doing very well; it's not just the EU. Is there any evidence that leaving the EU will help this situation? I think there are a lot of people who agree with you, but this whole thing seems too poorly planned and justified to really understand the impact. People are voting based on how they feel instead of what will actually have the best outcome.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:06AM (#11966274)
Well there's ample evidence that the EU is not doing any better than the rest of the world, and certainly worse that many developing countries and even worse than non-EU developed nations. There's litterally no data to support that the EU was a good thing on an economic point of view.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by NetTechM on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:12AM (#11966317)
Very true, unfortunately, pooling money between a few economically well developed countries and quite a few economically bunk countries does not work well for those whose money was actually worth something in the first place.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by toomuchtodo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:17AM (#11966356)
Are talking about the pound? Because it doesn't appear like its worth much now.

https://twitter.com/DavidInglesTV/status/746192676085600256

> This is something we've never seen, chances are you'll never see again Pound just collapses 13% vs. the Yen #Brexit

https://twitter.com/MatthewPhillips/status/74618964684197888...

> Wow. The £ is down 8.4%. Currencies are not supposed to do that. (1% move is considered massive.)

Re:UK votes to leave EU by NetTechM on Friday June 24, 2016 @09:20PM (#11974706)
Compared to just prior to joining the EU, the pound is down nearly 100%, since they were at about 2.50 USD the year they joined and that was prior to massive inflation.

I think the bigger picture is eluding some people in the face of shiny doomsday articles.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by imtringued on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:49AM (#11967276)
Source?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by alex_young on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:05AM (#11966266)
I'm sure Germany agrees. The EU has been just terrible for member economies.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by NetTechM on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:13AM (#11966324)
The European Union was a resounding success for Germany, the Deutsche Mark was terrible in comparison and their economy saw a huge lift.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by 1w9813w91981291 on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:43AM (#11967583)
With Germany you always have to take the re-unification into account. The D-Mark wasn't bad before 1989 and the lift of the economy may as well being the East doing better rather than Euro effects.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ghzghz2 on Friday June 24, 2016 @05:30AM (#11968176)
socialism?!! It is probably the only institution or country to have the free movement of capital and services written into its constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_market

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:04AM (#11966260)
E? Do you know what welfare does UK has? They are good with their socialism. It's not why they are leaving. And EU is much more than money, look at history of EU and look in which part of the history there was no wars in EU.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by kodfodrasz on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:43AM (#11966555)
Correlation is not causation. The fact no wars between EU members happened (yet) during the existence of the EU is note necessarily caused by the existence or the very nature of the EU.

Also given the recent proceedings in the course of the EU all member countries are better off with the whole house of cards collapsing. We can always build a new alliance, but this USSR style direction is not the least promising.

Take a look at the Greek, what a success the EU was for them. Take a look at the handling of the Greek dept problem, how well the EU reagated to that. Take a look at the migrant crisis: the western EU members criticized Hungary for defending its borders, which it is obliged to by the schengen treaty. The leaders did not play by the rules they have set, yet they talk about more centralization should do the trick.

The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable. Also does not show ability to control this imbecile of a superpower.

This EU must die for its architectural problems. Just as the USSR had to die. I beleive this will also happen without violence, as there is no common military force under the control of the "leaders".

I also beleive, that the European people, even those voting leave, have a wish to be united. But maybe some beleive we are first British, and second European, and they do not wish to sacrafice their local values for some abstract European or global values. Yet they do not feel bad about the other Europeans.

Europe has longer, and different history than the USA, and most importantly, though often forgotten, most European nations have made huge saccrifices for their freedom, for their very existence as a nation.

In short, to save the EU: "everything must change so that everything can stay the same"

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:52AM (#11966626)
Look at Greek? You know why greeks were in situation in which they ended? Because this was their own fault, they had 18 gardeners employed in one of their local government building on payroll but only one was needed. They paid all government employees bonus for coming to work on time, bonus for washing hands, bonus for being all day in work. Then they made "creative books" which made this disaster from the eyes of others.

> The European Council is not elected by the people, and is not accountable.

European Council is not elected by people? Please read more about EU before claiming such things which are not true - "The European Council is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission."

Re:UK votes to leave EU by kodfodrasz on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:28AM (#11967492)
The Greek debt problem was not handled by the EU. The Greek have their part in that problem, but the EU is just as responsible, for letting the situation get there, and also for forcing the Euro and integration in a pace faster than organically happening.

The greek economy and books were audited by EU agencies. If a bug slips through reviews and tests in a software project, than the bug is the responsibility of the author? I think only partly, actually many are involved, and the process is the main problem usually.

> European Council is not elected by people?

True, I have mistaken it for the European Commission.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Friday June 24, 2016 @03:40AM (#11967559)
You still write things that are not true. Using your analogy what happened is that they didn't gave them code with bug they gave them code to review that they didn't even use.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:20AM (#11966377)
> which part of the history there was no wars in EU.

In case you have a short memory, before the EU there was the League of Nations between WW1 and WW2, to ensure wars would never happen again in Europe (and elsewhere). It did not work out too well.

The fact that we did not get any war in Europe after WW2 has really nothing to do with the EU being there or not. If anything, war did not break out because we were too busy preventing the Cold War from exploding in Europe and having Russia invade or coup every other country, like they did in the whole Eastern part of Europe.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:38AM (#11966517)
They worked "preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration" which do not work look at UN and how many wars we still have. Democratic governments, rule of law and the most important: same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone - this is what prevented wars not some League of Nations with their dead agreements. Cold War ended what is keeping them busy from war now ?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:55AM (#11966644)
> same values and connected markets and economies, euro zone

Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know. Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets. And the TPP, with the blessing of most EU members (in secret).

There's no recipe to avoid war, but political stability is certainly correlated with economic prosperity. The EU is not making this happen, so we should see it slowly desintegrate.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by lossolo on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:17AM (#11966769)
> Same values, I beg to differ. The values of a Greek and of a German could be completely different as far as you know.

Depend which values you are talking about but Greek signed European Convention on Human Rights, there is a LOT of values written there if you ask me which those countries you mention share.

> Connected Markets? The EU has become a tariff-heavy zone, the opposite of a Free Market - look at how many trade agreements we have to regulate and impeach free markets.

It's not true for most products, but some indeed are regulated because if you have 28 different countries you need to control some of the segments of markets or your country/other countries will suffer, that's why you have for example limits for milk producing etc. Show my any organization exactly like EU which doesn't regulate their common market.

> There's no recipe to avoid war

For sure there is no 100% certain recipe to avoid war but nothing was created closer to that recipe than EU. I live in country that was transformed from communism to democracy in 1989, trust me it can be a lot worse than it's now in EU, you can't imagine.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by anonymousDan on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:27AM (#11966821)
Such utter nonsense. How on earth is the EU a tariff heavy zone? And to say with such confidence the EU had no part to play in preventing further wars is ridiculous.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by rayiner on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:16AM (#11966346)
It's ironic to me that a site where people extol the virtues of consistent culture at startups is so down on people voting to free themselves from a body politic they don't believe shares their values.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by booleanbetrayal on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:27AM (#11966819)
"Change the world (but don't)!"
Re:UK votes to leave EU by Simon321 on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:06AM (#11967041)
With change people usually mean positive change. Progress. This is undoing change, the opposite of progress. Now it's just like it was before.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by dropit_sphere on Saturday June 25, 2016 @01:07PM (#11977016)
Wahtever you do, don't fix bugs after you've introduced them. Do you want to be stuck in the past?
Re:UK votes to leave EU by zacketysack3 on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:59PM (#11966224)
As a free market supporter it is horrifying that protectionist sentiments reign supreme in the UK. Hopefully this does not foreshadow the US congressional and presidential elections in November.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by ekianjo on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:08AM (#11966288)
It's actually a good thing for Free Market, since the UK will now be able to define what rules they want to play with, instead of having to rely on EU's bureaucrats.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by nikdaheratik on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:16AM (#11966766)
For their internal markets maybe, but the EU is half of their exports. So either they stop exporting, or they follow the rules of the EU without having a say in them.

There are some good arguments for leaving, but this isn't one of them, IMO.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by tuna-piano on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:01AM (#11966233)
Was this vote protectionist? I assume they'll just setup free trade deals with Europe, similiar to what Norway and Switzerland already have?