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Re:Buffer Layoffs by terrywilcox on Thursday June 16, 2016 @05:29PM (#11919032)
I recommend not having children if you're only keeping them as long as it serves your self interest.
Re:Buffer Layoffs by jes on Thursday June 16, 2016 @05:34PM (#11919058)
I recommend thinking carefully about what is to your long-term self-interest, and then acting accordingly.

That would include not creating children if you and your partner are not certain that you want them and will do what is required to raise them in a peaceful, loving and rational home.

Re:Buffer Layoffs by gohrt on Thursday June 16, 2016 @06:54PM (#11919541)
What if the children are the ones disturbing the peace, not loving, and bering irrational?

And how can you be "loving" and "rational" at the same time?

Re:Buffer Layoffs by jes on Thursday June 16, 2016 @07:12PM (#11919643)
I think you've asked some good questions.

So, I think children should be disturbing the peace, and perhaps frequently. I see children as being engaged in absolutely critical work, which is trying to build up a set of abstractions, or concepts, that will allow them to succeed in the world as adults.

To do this, I think they have to do lots and lots of experiments. It may look like horsing around to us, but I don't think it is.

As regards being loving, I'd say a couple of things. First, I think children have a natural sense for justice. A child that is treated justly will, over time, learn to treat others justly. Too often, though, I'm not sure that the parents have an entirely firm grip on what justice is, though, and so they might act unjustly towards their children, and then be angry when the child doesn't act in a loving manner towards them.

As regards being irrational, I'd say that that is also sort of the expected-state for someone who is still developing. I don't think all parts of the brain (e.g., the pre-frontal cortex) is fully developed until about age 24 or so. I would also say, again, that one would want to look at what the parents are doing. Maybe they are treating the child in an irrational way, which I think is going to cause them to receive a response that, in their different frame of reference, seems "irrational."

I'm not sure I understand the dichotomy between being loving and rational at the same time. In my view, a rational person is a loving person, rather than an emotionless character like Mr. Spock from Star Trek.

Hope this helps.

Re:Buffer Layoffs by SolaceQuantum on Friday June 17, 2016 @01:47AM (#11920893)
What happens when a child is psychotic or has a chronic health condition that causes them to struggle to communicate or 'give back' to their family in a way the family can understand? What happens if the child becomes suddenly ill, or is accused ofa crime that will take a lot of money to resolve? I feel that family is hard to view add a business transaction because there are these edge cases.
Re:Buffer Layoffs by kbenson on Friday June 17, 2016 @11:28AM (#11923197)
> What happens when a child is psychotic or has a chronic health condition that causes them to struggle to communicate or 'give back' to their family in a way the family can understand?

Sometimes what the family gets out of it is a sense of moral correctness, and self assurance that what they are doing is correct. People use cost benefit analyses for everything, it's just that we often don't take into account some aspects (such as how we feel about an action,or how it affects our self image) when trying to rationally weigh those costs and benefits mentally.

If cutting off ties with your child makes you feel extremely guilty or like a horrible person, to the degree where you can't stand it, then obviously you weren't correctly weighing the impact that action would have on you.

Note, in the case of children, it's a bit more complicated, because IMO you've essentially contractually obligated yourself to your child for at least 18 years, but generally for much longer. By bringing that person into the world, you bear some of the responsibility for their outcome. Often this doesn't feel much like responsibility because our strong emotional connection and need to protect and help subsumes it, but if those are removed, responsibility does remain.

Re:Buffer Layoffs by pc86 on Friday June 17, 2016 @07:17AM (#11921947)
Because you're an adult.
Re:Buffer Layoffs by terrywilcox on Thursday June 16, 2016 @05:52PM (#11919156)
I can't explain why you're wrong about kids and self-interest. It's something you have to experience for yourself.

You may have an epiphany about the 50th time you yell "watch out for that car". I swear she _wants_ me to have a heart attack.

Re:Buffer Layoffs by jes on Thursday June 16, 2016 @06:21PM (#11919341)
I do have some experience with parenting. I have three children, in their 20s and 30s at this time. All are doing very well, and we are all on good terms with each other.

With respect, I think our different views may be the result of a different understanding of what it means to truly be self-interested. In my view, it's nothing like being a greedy bastard who only cares about sacrificing other people to himself, being a manipulator, being miserly, etc.

Re:Buffer Layoffs by falsestprophet on Thursday June 16, 2016 @09:42PM (#11920182)
"Good terms" is setting a pretty low bar for family.
Re:Buffer Layoffs by nostrebored on Thursday June 16, 2016 @10:23PM (#11920310)
Is it, if the GP instilled the same values in his children? I hope that my children will hold me accountable for my actions and vice versa.
Re:Buffer Layoffs by jes on Friday June 17, 2016 @12:35AM (#11920706)
Thank you for understanding this point.

I do not want my children to love me because I'm their father, or because I took care of them (along with their mother) when they were growing up.

I see it as my job, if I want a relationship with my children, to be bringing value to them in the here and now.

Sure, we have good memories of the past, but good memories are not (in my view) a sufficient basis for an ongoing relationship.

Even worse would be a sense of obligation on the part of my children towards me, simply because I'm their father.

You summarized it well: "I hope my children will hold me accountable for my actions, and vice-versa."

Re:Buffer Layoffs by omarchowdhury on Friday June 17, 2016 @02:16AM (#11920977)
What was your relationship like with your parents?