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Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @09:41PM (#11906676)
There has been too much recently of government agencies losing data due to "crashes" or "inadvertent" deletions. For example the IRS, state department, and now the Air Force.

A really easy way to fix this is to make a law so that if government data such as this gets lost, then the cabinet level person responsible for overseeing the agency immediately loses their cabinet level position and is barred from further work with the federal government.

This would do wonders to align incentives all through the federal agencies when it comes to data safeguards.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by heimatau on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @10:18PM (#11906812)
This idea is too simplistic. Although I used to support it. I've changed my position from yours to 'retrained and demotion' position. Since people make mistakes, I think being 'barred from further work' is counter-productive and the government would lose out on many able and competent workers. Heck, this idea could also be exploited by lower-level workers due to not liking their higher-up bosses; i.e. a lower-level worker intentionally screwing up and costing the job of the higher-up boss because of the 'new law' stating the higher-up is now 'barred' from further govt work. Easy way to take out the competition going up a ladder.

P.S. I think legislating accountability is an issue the public needs to debate. In all countries. The US has seen numerous gross negligence/errors (heck one is too many) in various levels of govt (fed, state, local). I hope we can come up with a better solution than 'fire them and bar them' and even mine of 'demote/retrain'. There has to be a better way to legislate govt accountability.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by PakG1 on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @12:04AM (#11907111)
Indeed, such ideas would create an atmosphere of fear and increase cover-ups, rather than solve problems. There needs to be a solution that acknowledges the inevitably of mistakes and still deals with the issue.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by iamflimflam1 on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @03:42AM (#11907735)
Exactly this. How many of us would be up in arms if developers were fired for making mistakes? You just need to look at all the stories around rm -rf...
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by emp_zealoth on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @06:00AM (#11908228)
Maybe thats exactly what should happen? I mean, whole "security" antics where companies loose tens of millions of logins/credit cards numbers and it all ends with "southpark BP apology" People fuck up epically and get a slap on a wrist with a promotion, I mean, come on
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by tmptmp on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @04:07AM (#11907825)
so what if tomorrow your bank says it has lost all records due to programming/tech error? who is responsible there? why is such sensitive data (air force etc) should be treated differently than cash/finance data?
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by sametmax on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @04:11AM (#11907836)
If you have backup, a crash won't lose months of data. I'm ok to lose a so called "competent worker" if he/she hasn't been doing something as simple as off-site backup.

It's local data corruption here. At worst you loose the data since the last backup.

Now, in the army, they have redundancy procedures for everything, and you want to make us believe the one server used to keep them in check, not only had crash beyong repair, but has no backup ?

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by fabled_giraffe on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @07:16AM (#11908514)
You'd be surprised how tenuous backup situations are at most companies and organizations. Even if your company is doing full disaster recovery checks 24/7, one after the other, a "well-placed" failure/mistakes or small series of failures/mistakes can lead to data loss.

Many of the things that cause data loss are just simple mistakes caused by a failure to review changes carefully, even when you have multiple levels of review- I would dare to say especially when you have high confidence that someone else is reviewing your changes.

"Manual" data changes, e.g. executing SQL statements or scripts that execute SQL that aren't a part of your application, in my experience are the most common cause of data loss.

After manual data changes the second most common in my experience is not understanding what you are doing. For example, you might take a chance on an upgrade that fails because you have to meet a deadline.

Changes to application code are next. Typically when making changes to an application, a little more thought may be put into it than a one-off data migration or change, but if you are under time pressure, don't know what you are doing, or are assuming someone else will catch your mistakes, you could easily screw everything.

Following this- mistakes that cause hardware or software failure. I worked at one large organization where storage arrays with various power backups were just "turned off" by a contractor that didn't understand the impact of what he or she was doing.

Finally, you might have configuration issues or the hardware might just fail.

Really, there is no substitute for having your data backed up frequently, and in a way you know how to easily restore and have tested, by building another machine from the ground up to replace it and documenting and practicing that well. Very few do this frequently. And even if you do- what if all of your hardware were destroyed? Can you easily go out and buy something off the shelf with instructions you have in your head or stored safely around the world and rebuild everything?

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by lostcolony on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @08:25AM (#11908836)
Please note the severity of this. It's not "We had a crash and lost a weeks worth of data" - yeah, that happens. And it's totally acceptable if you're unable to restore it, for any of the reasons you mention.

This is "We had a crash and lost over a decade's worth of data" - yeah, that shouldn't happen. Ever. If you don't have a working backup from sometime in the past 13 years, -you are doing something wrong-. That's not a small series of failures or mistakes. That's either staggering levels of incompetence, or maliciousness.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by Bartweiss on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @09:33AM (#11909182)
This is exactly right. A misconfigured backup script, or a pessimal chain of crashes, or a lot of other things could lose recent data. I wouldn't be shocked by data loss.

This is decade of data. It should have been on in cold storage, on tested media, in multiple locations. No single error, or small chain of errors, should have enabled this to happen.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by sametmax on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @08:21AM (#11908817)
We are not talking about "most companies". We are talking of the air force, an organisation that is built to be resilient and handle crisis. Backups, fallbacks, redundancy, checks, reviews, access management and risk evaluation are BAKED IN their culture and mission.

And we are not talking about "any data". This was cleary very sensitive data they new they needed to protect.

Either the Air Force is failling at being the very thing it's been created to be (which I doubt) or something is fishy (ocaml razor).

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by sverige on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @09:49PM (#11906705)
Yeah, forgive me if I'm too cynical, but Hanlon's razor fails when this sort of thing involves criminal investigations of government employees.

Edit: it also inspired a variation on an old joke about how the same word means different things to different people. For example, suppose the order goes out to "secure the data center."

Marines report back, "We have destroyed the data center."

Army reports, "We have killed everyone in the data center and are holding the position."

Navy: "We locked the doors when we left for the day."

Air Force: "We signed a three-year contract with an outsourcing company, with an option to extend at the same price for ten more years."

Which of course means that just because I don't think Hanlon's razor applies doesn't mean I think they're competent.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by jMyles on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @02:00AM (#11907411)
> Yeah, forgive me if I'm too cynical, but Hanlon's razor fails when this sort of thing involves criminal investigations of government employees.

I've had this thought before. Can you think of a general, defensible clause to add to Hanlon's razor to account for this?

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @05:45AM (#11908153)
"There is no point in trying to distinguish incompetence from malice when it directly benefits the party committing the error."

You need to treat it all as malice.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by jMyles on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @04:05PM (#11911761)
This seems like a very reasonable standard when the power of the state is being wielded.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by thaumasiotes on Thursday June 16, 2016 @05:06AM (#11914900)
It applies at all times. Given that it's very easy to disguise your behavior as incompetence, it doesn't make sense to give the benefit of the doubt to people who do something that gives them a huge payout. Trying to forgive the incompetent people while punishing the malicious ones just brings you a huge epidemic of mysteriously incompetent people.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by jMyles on Thursday June 16, 2016 @01:57PM (#11917741)
But what if it's not about punishment, but prevention?
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by Bartweiss on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @09:35AM (#11909202)
The usual formulation I hear is:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. But don't rule out malice."

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by sverige on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @05:53AM (#11908193)
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by carelessness."

Unless that malice is aimed at keeping an individual out of trouble rather than harming others.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by pfortuny on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @08:49AM (#11908965)
It only applies to physical persons, not to groups.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @04:44AM (#11907928)
Imagine what would happen in the industry if every time someone screwed up like that they got fired. Just like that, without any option given to explain what happened, how they tried everything they could from stopping it and so on.

Ah, I know it's the way it is in some organisations, sure. But is it a good way to handle people screwing up? People always screw up. If you start firing them for screwing up you end up with a pool of inexperienced workers who keep screwing up in the same way. If you keep them around, they learn and never screw up in the same way again.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by saiya-jin on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @05:19AM (#11908048)
there is screwing up and screwing up. one - you do all you could, act proactively, educate yourself, but forces beyond your control prevent you from reaching optimal state and massive clusterfk happens. I would keep this one.

then you have ignorants, that in 2016 will not even think that mission-critical system should have SOME backup, off-site. people that will put amazing amount of energy into little political games, backstabbing, or just plain old incompetent lazy ones. those should become exemplary cases.

investigation should sort out which is which, but most will fall on either side of spectrum. usually it's really not that hard.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by keithpeter on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @05:50AM (#11908181)
"Neither the Air Force nor Lockheed Martin, the defense firm that runs the database, could say why it became corrupted or whether they’ll be able to recover the information."

Incumbent trusts local IT manager and local IT manager has contract with external company.

The question becomes: "Did the contract with Lockheed Martin cover any form of regular backup and additionally some form of long term open format archiving?"

Perhaps some checklists or standards that all long term record keeping systems need to comply with would be good.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by picklebutt on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @10:34PM (#11906859)
It's super convient considering congress is investigating their discipline processes after some incidents they've had.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by WalterBright on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @06:59AM (#11908459)
It's always an attractive idea to eliminate incompetence through threats. It's been tried lots of times throughout history, and has never succeeded (in fact, it usually makes things worse).
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by laughfactory on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @11:27PM (#11907026)
I agree. These days I don't believe it when I hear something so opportune... oh, surprise surprise, we lost all our data on criminal investigations. How convenient for some people!
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by gravypod on Sunday June 19, 2016 @12:10AM (#11931740)
> A really easy way to fix this is to make a law so that if government data such as this gets lost, then the cabinet level person responsible for overseeing the agency immediately loses their cabinet level position and is barred from further work with the federal government.

I see a fantastic way to completely abuse this. Need to get someone who disagrees with you kicked out? Hire some corporate espionage people to take care of that work for you!

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by madaxe_again on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @09:02AM (#11909040)
Losing their position is meaningless - they'll just go private and make even more money while being recklessly incompetent. They'd just hire a clean agent as their intermediary for government contracts.

No, I'd slap prison sentences on everyone involved, not just loss of government employment.

Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by seanwilson on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @06:20AM (#11908304)
Making mistakes is an important part of learning and becoming experienced. I'm sure we've all done a bad "rm -f" from time and time, and each mistakes makes you more cautious in the future.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by varjag on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @03:36AM (#11907714)
All that would lead to is make any process change in the government impossible, domination of defensive document workflow a.k.a. CYA, and thorough lack of leadership.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by jaytaylor on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @10:05PM (#11906771)
This seems like a great idea for incentivizing success. I'd support such legislation 100%.
Re:Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation... by tn13 on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @01:28AM (#11907319)
Can not agree more. Losing data must be considered a same level of crime as losing money or life.