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Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by droithomme on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:14PM (#11905363)
Many questions are never asked in these articles.

Is suicide bad? Is it immoral? Is it a crime? Should it not be permitted? If it is wrong, immoral, and a crime, should people who attempt it be punished?

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Declanomous on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:25PM (#11905444)
Well, from what I recall from biomedical ethics, the majority of people who attempt suicide and fail do not attempt suicide again. This would suggest that for most people suicide is merely a phase they can pass through.

Regardless, these questions are asked all of the time. A news article about a new feature on a social media site isn't an appropriate forum for discussing such a ridiculously complex topic as the ethics of suicide. The only way your comment could be less appropriate is if you were advocating for a discussion on the ethics of murder on an article about a murder suicide.

Edit: I suggest checking out the article on suicide on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The Encyclopedia as a whole is a great resource, and this article is no different:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by TruthAndDare on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:08PM (#11905727)
> This would suggest that for most people suicide is merely a phase they can pass through.

Strictly speaking, I don't think that necessarily means that these people are better off surviving. One could imagine that they are in pain that is temporary, but severe enough that they are better off dieing immediately, even taking into account that they are missing out on the life that would otherwise have come after the pain.

By making them stay alive, we are perhaps forcing them into the worse option.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Declanomous on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:24PM (#11905833)
Oh, I don't disagree. I personally believe that suicide can be a rational decision. However, I believe that it is not a rational decision with much greater frequency.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:16PM (#11905381)
I'm in the camp that suicide is a human right, and I get plenty of heat for having that opinion. People seem to feel entitled to the existence of other people, which I can't seem to understand.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Declanomous on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:38PM (#11905528)
I'm sure the majority of the heat you receive is because your stance has absolutely no nuance to it. For instance, the majority of people who attempt suicide and live never attempt suicide again.

Similarly, suicide mostly seems to be impulsive -- if access to a certain method of attempting suicide is reduced, the corresponding decrease in suicide attempts via that method is not reflected in a corresponding rise in suicide attempts via other methods.

Lastly, suicide rarely occurs in the depths of depression. People who attempt to take their own life are much more likely to be heading into or out of a depressive episode.

While these aren't the only reasons that we should attempt to prevent suicides, I feel they provide sufficient counter-evidence to your argument. I will say that I am in favor of physician-assisted suicide, and there is definitely a contingent of people who are hell-bent on killing themselves, but for the most part most people who are suicidal will later be thankful to be alive.

If you'd like to know more, I suggest reading the article on suicide on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/

Edit: Section 3.4 (Libertarian Views and the Right to Suicide) responds to your criticism very directly[1]

If you find that interesting (of if you still find yourself unable to sympathize with those who believe they should attempt to prevent suicides), I'd suggest taking a course on either biomedical ethics, or ethics in general. These topics have been debated for centuries at this point, and there are a number of very compelling arguments on both sides.

[1] This position is open to at least two objections. First, it does not seem to follow from having a right to life that a person has a right to death, i.e., a right to take her own life. Because others are morally prohibited from killing me, it does not follow that anyone else, including myself, is permitted to kill me. This conclusion is made stronger if the right to life is inalienable, since in order for me to kill myself, I must first renounce my inalienable right to life, which I cannot do (Feinberg 1978). It is at least possible that no one has the right to determine the circumstances of a person's death! Furthermore, as with the property-based argument, the right to self-determination is presumably circumscribed by the possibility of harm to others.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:50PM (#11905618)
Nothing in that linked article is new to me. The religious and deontological arguments are uncompelling.

No one chose to exist, but I think everyone is entitled to not exist, regardless of their reasons. Even if someone is thankful that they were prevented from taking their own life, that's essentially an argument of the form "the ends justifies the means."

As Camus said, "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide." I think it's up to everyone to decide that for themselves. Preventing people from doing such is unethical, imho.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Declanomous on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:20PM (#11905808)
>Even if someone is thankful that they were prevented from taking their own life, that's essentially an argument of the form "the ends justifies the means."

You have completely misrepresented my argument. Nowhere did I present anything that could even remotely be construed as a consequentialist argument.

I provided that point as a direct rebuttal to your point that if we look at agent-focused moral systems, and ignore agent-neutral moral systems, preventing people from committing suicide doesn't make sense.

> I think it's up to everyone to decide that for themselves. Preventing people from doing such is unethical, imho.

Your opinion is indefensible and insane. What you have implied constitutes prevention is absurdly broad. For instance, from a consequentialist standpoint, calling a friend you fear may be suicidal and asking them to hang out would constitute prevention at least some of the time. Ignoring that issue, the evidence I've presented effectively argues against the idea that most people who attempt suicide wish to kill themselves. Most suicidal individuals are impulsively responding to what the French might call L'appel du vide, or the call of the void. If they were rational, they would not attempt suicide in the first place.

I cannot imagine you actually understand the points Camus is trying to make if this is the conclusion you have come to. Please seek out further education on the subject. Your knowledge of ethics and philosophy is appalling, and ultimately harmful.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:56PM (#11906021)
"Prevention" implies force, and that's all I meant by it. I take no issue with talking to those whom have expressed the desire to commit suicide. My primary issue is when it escalates to calls to police/medical professionals and force of law is brought to bear.

I'm sorry you find my ethics so abhorrent, though I often feel that way about the ethics of others.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:25PM (#11905839)
> that's essentially an argument of the form "the ends justifies the means."

What else would justify the means? There's nothing wrong with that form of argument.

There are arguments of that form that are wrong, but not because of the form, rather, because either the ends don't justify the means, or because the means produce additional unaccounted costs which offset the value they have in producing the ends. Or, because there are less-costly means to the ends, or because the means don't actually produce the ends used to justify them.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:49PM (#11905979)
The means in such arguments are implied to be unethical or somehow violate the rights of someone. When that's the case, the proposed end result is used to justify the otherwise unethical action.

I've never seen a valid argument of that form and I use this particular phrase as a heuristic for validating arguments. If you have examples of arguments that best take that form, I'd be happy to entertain them.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:53PM (#11906003)
That's just an a priori assertion that certain means are categorically unjustifiable (by anything, ends or otherwise) because they are inherently unethical, which is irrelevant to the form of the argument.

If you want to make the point that certain means are categorically unacceptable, make that argument (which will very quickly, I suspect, get to a root moral axiom on which no debate is possible, simply agreement or disagreement) rather than raising irrelevancies about the form of the argument.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @07:05PM (#11906070)
Fair reply, though I think I've stated my axiom: people have a right to nonexistence. As a corollary: people don't have a right to the existence of others.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by wordchucks on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @07:14PM (#11906113)
Replying only to show agreement and because the other guy .. well.. you know. I wish there were upvotes.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by ionised on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @07:40AM (#11908633)
Would you attempt to prevent someone about to engage in ritual suicide from doing so?

That's not a mental issue, it's cultural.

Not all suicides are the result of mental anguish or impulsive decisions.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:44PM (#11905576)
You can believe that suicide is a human right, and at the same time believe that it is almost always a horrible choice. You can help people see why it's a horrible choice while still maintaining that it's a human right.

Whether or not it's a right can tend to be something of an abstract discussion. But when someone commits suicide, it's not abstract. They die.

And it's not abstract to me, because I've helped prevent the suicides of two friends, and failed to prevent that of a neighbor.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:53PM (#11905638)
Should we prevent people from making horrible choices? We certainly don't use the force of law to prevent someone from marrying the wrong person even though they may be making a horrible choice.

I think there are conditions in which someone can live that is worse than death, and the problem is finding where you draw that line for yourself. For instance, I would prefer death to slavery or permanent incarceration.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:37PM (#11905899)
Well, if my friend (or child) wants to marry the wrong person, I'll do my best to change their mind. Between "use the force of law" and "do nothing", there is a lot of room...
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:44PM (#11905944)
I'm ok with anything short of using force-of-law. My concern with the facebook feature is it provides a pretext for applying force of law.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by sxg on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:04PM (#11905705)
No one is suggesting using the force of law to prevent people from committing suicide. This is just a helpful tool. It's not forcing anyone to do (or not do) anything.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:10PM (#11905736)
Suicide is currently against the law and medical professionals regularly use force of law to prevent someone whom they think is suicidal from going through with it.

This feature provides the pretext for such force.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Jtsummers on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @07:02PM (#11906061)
By the time you are in the care of medical professionals they are responsible for your life. A physically able and rational person will find little impeding their attempt to kill themselves. A person who is mentally unsound and in medical care is not in a state of mind to make a rational decision about ending their life. It's not like it can be undone. The physically impaired (injured, sick), but mentally sound, you have a reasonable case for medical professionals assisting or at least not preventing suicide. But you seem to ignore all cases other than if someone wants to do, let them, even if the decision is spur of the moment because they just experienced something horrible and haven't given time to process it fully. Brilliant.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by x3n0ph3n3 on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @07:37PM (#11906242)
> But you seem to ignore all cases other than if someone wants to do, let them, even if the decision is spur of the moment because they just experienced something horrible and haven't given time to process it fully

I generally believe that government shouldn't protect people from themselves. Again, I'm only arguing against using force of law to prevent someone from taking their own life, not talking someone down from the ledge.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by tajen on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:50PM (#11905616)
Suicide is definitly bad by all standards set up by the living: It automatically revokes all insurance contracts including life insurance and it's heavily frowned upon in most religions and in most families.

I find it gruesome. Revoking the right for someone to end their life is torture for some. It's not without reason that's what happens with prison: They keep you forcefully alive. It's also what happens when you're medically assisted and you can't go for euthanasia. It also happens when you're deep in the failure of life: The living will check on you so you don't commit suicide. There are anti-suicide barriers everywhere. There's pretty much no place to commit suicide anymore. And now facebook.

Our civilization relies on removing the right of people from resigning from life. We want them to produce.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by ionised on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @07:48AM (#11908668)
> Suicide is definitly bad by all standards set up by the living.

Not true. many societies have had the concept of ritual suicide as a matter of honour.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by gnashville on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:17PM (#11905388)
Albert Camus added you as a friend.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by solotronics on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:38PM (#11905526)
Heisenberg simultaneously did and didn't add you as a friend.
Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Analemma_ on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @05:39PM (#11905534)
Questions like this are appropriate when discussing voluntary euthanasia for terminal medical conditions (which I am in favor of, for the record). They are not at all relevant in cases like this; where Facebook is trying to aid detection and intervention in cases of mental illness when the suicidal person is (literally) not thinking properly.

Nowhere in this discussion is there an implication that suicide is wrong, immoral, or a crime, or that the people should be punished; I don't understand why you're even bringing that up.

Re:Facebook Offers Tools for Those Who Fear a Friend May Be ... by Razengan on Tuesday June 14, 2016 @06:02PM (#11905690)
I'm not insinuating that this is what's happening, but, forcing people to stay alive so they can keep buying stuff may be the ultimate capitalist dystopia.