This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.

Germany has the Vereinswesen, which are small clubs around a common hobby (such as shooting, football, gymnastics, orchestra, basketball, etc.) that are usually part of a larger Verband, which may be state or country-wide like the DFB (German Football Federation), the DBB (German Basketball Federation), DSB (German Shooting and Archery Federation), or the BDMV (Association of German Music Societies).

That could be a model.

And it is in many countries, but for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to work that way. I was a bit surprised when my son spent a year in high school in the U.S. and I found out how youth football (soccer) system works there. Over here in Europe, we have a plethora of local clubs that collect the young and old to train and play, and to work together to organise everything, fund it, and so on. In the U.S. the football (again, soccer) seems to be predominantly organised by schools, and a very small part of players belong to actual soccer clubs. I understand the same is true with other sports (American football, baseball, basketball, etc). Similarly we have lots of clubs that arrange things like music and orchestra trainings for youth, whereas in the U.S. this is also organized around schools.

This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's "quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can in a local club?

I think this is partly driven by population density. In much of the US, there's only enough people for ~1 such club in a given town (and often barely that).

It could be one factor, but still, the sports action doesn't seem to be organized around clubs even in higher density areas. My country has half the population density of U.S. and still organizes around local clubs, even in the lowest density areas.

Regarding churches and other religious institutions, however, the population density doesn't matter: the U.S. has many more of them, even where population is sparse.

meetup.com seems to be alive in every city....

How is the target audience for Meetup elsewhere? I live in Berlin and I noticed that it's almost exclusively developers (which is fun, but sometimes weird - I went to a street cycling meetup and everybody else was a dev too). Maybe the dominance of German clubs in organized leisure is the reason for that.

Because meetup.com is what the expat nerds know

I've given up on it though sometimes you find something "outside of the circle"

It's like craigslist in Berlin: there are only scams because Americans think it works the same as in the US, when Germans have never even heard of it

That was my impression too. In particular the types of meetups seem very limited to tech topics. Some are ok, mostly those that are actually meant for non-topic specific networking, like hiking groups etc, generally sports outside of clubs.

In my personal opinion, it's more centered around technology folks

I work at a community radio station, and I definitely see this as filling the void in my life that a community church serves for others (and for us, music is quite literally a religion).

I wonder how many people can answer yes to the questions:

1. Do you believe there is something out there bigger than yourself? 2. Do you interface with others in your community, connected in some fashion to this Greater Power?

I feel lucky to have this community radio, I wonder what other examples people have out there.

I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.

Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.

"When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...

McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.

In the UK, there is Sunday Assembly, a secular community that otherwise resembles church: https://www.sundayassembly.com

My experience with the Sunday Assembly in my area was that it was really nice, but a pale comparison of the church life I had experienced.

I wish I knew what the missing element was, but I'm afraid a big part of it is the opt-in nature. It's like the difference between a good family and a good group of friends. The former is held together not just based on a desire to be together, but (usually) also on a sense of obligation/duty or even deeply held belief.

Good point - I've been planning to go again for a while, but never do...

That's a large part of why I'm into social dancing.

Is there such a thing as anti-social dancing?

Ever been to a psytrance rave? Lots of people are go there with minimum social interaction and are there purely for dancing to the music in their on bubble.

> Ever been to a psytrance rave? [...]

...or silent disco.

BTW, there's a great movie "Lobster" [1], where this "anti-social dance" phenomenon is hilariously portrayed in one of the scenes. Highly recommended.

[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/

"Social" refers to the fact that it's more about experiencing a dance, rather than performing to an audience. Lindy hop, swing, blues, contra, and contact improv would all count here. Ballet, breakdancing, mime, and tap would not.

Dancing alone in your living room, I suppose.

Yes, this is a great point that I bring up frequently. Even though I don't participate in churches I do think there is a real value in the communities they create.

The challenge is, is it possible to create such a community without it being around something like a religion or cult?

Sports (either watching or doing) are the closest thing I can think of but that takes a certain type of personality.

Universal Unitarianism is pretty close to this. It is non-creedal (you don't have to believe in anything) and very community-oriented.

That's Unitarian Universalism, for the benefit of anyone trying to Google it. :) But yeah, UU seems like a really solid substitute for the traditional religious community. Shame it isn't more popular.

Not a substitute at all. It would be like getting rid of football, but still wanting people to go to stadiums for the sake of going to stadiums. Football was the reason they went.

The religions bind mostly due to the doctrine of the religion, not the activities of it. UU has no real doctrines and no binding point. Without that doctrine motivating you to do the activities, people just stop or don't bother. This is why secular attempts will mostly fail, because the doctrines they do have tend to be extremely narrow and non-universal, i.e. knowledge worker-style atheism.

That hasn't been my experience in the Episcopal Church. We're pretty liberal and don't do a lot of telling people what to do. People may come for the doctrine, but they stay for the ceremony and the fellowship.

That's my perception of church-based community. The doctrine is really just an excuse to get together and form community bonds. By your analogy, I think it's more like switching to, say, track and field, not gathering in an empty football stadium--a very different sport, but still a reason to get together and cheer. I'm not sure how that can be translated to the secular world, but it seems like there should be a way.

(I think a lot of modern atheists don't realize that liberal Christians exist. The awful fundamentalists dominate the news cycle so much. Most of us are happy to mind our own business, do charity work in the community, etc., but none of that makes headlines.)

My (quick) survey of a half dozen religious friends is that they value the community aspect much moreso than the doctrine/supernatural elements.

I posted this comment not to suggest either of us is 100% correct or incorrect, but to counteract the certainty with which you left your assertion.

Oops… dyslexia kicks in late at night :) Thank you.

They meet on Sundays to hear presentations from each other :)

We as a family have tried going to a UU church, but it was so much like any protestant church that it felt just the same. Beyond that, there was little that we connected with the other congregants on.

Some people obviously make it work, but I don't know if just mimicking church with secular ideas is a winning solution.

I think it's just one of those things that families/individuals have to work out for themselves.

More importantly the institution of family.

Please stop posting inflammatory ideological comments to Hacker News. That is not what this site is for.