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Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by shawndrost on Thursday June 09, 2016 @10:54PM (#11873983)
(I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor.)

It's always a bummer when an alum would not recommend the program. I hate reading posts like this and I'd love to buy the poster a beer and learn more so we can do it different next time. (Email is in profile!)

Here's a bit of inside baseball:

This post is representative of a troubled period at our school. We had a couple of overlapping key problems and recent alums have been less supportive of the school. We care and we've made big moves to fix it. 1) Candidates were gaming the admissions process -> we rewrote it. 2) Students only had access to 2014 data and didn't know how it was calculated -> we published our 2015 data (and some stuff on 2016) and we published the world's first guide to "how to publish employment statistics that aren't bullshit", and we ramped up messaging to students "expect that your job search might be harder".[A] 3) Students stopped knowing who we were and stopped feeling like they could trust us -> we bought back two leaders to focus full-time on the campus (vs working at the umbrella organization). Lots of smaller changes as well.

Even during this difficult period, students are generally having a great experience and getting an ROI that we are proud of. Our most recent NPS measurements have all been above 80, which is bonkers. (This means that nearly everyone is a 9 or a 10 on a 1-10 scale of "how likely are you to recommend HR to a friend?")

There are a lot of details in this post that I don't disagree with. Eg "Ironically the number of lectures drops dramatically after the first week." This is true and we tell students about it during w1. It's the correct design decision. Etc. For other students, those same details have added up to a different gestalt. We care and we try to fix things when things aren't adding up. The diagnosis is not linear (you can't just fix the problems that alums cite) but we listen and try to sort out the right decisions.

I empathize with a lot of things going on and I want recent alums to know we care. I also think it's bonkers that our 98% placement rate in 2015 (94% in 3 months, ~85%ish in 3 months for one recent cohort) is being cited like it's weak sauce. That's a towering accomplishment of staggering magnitude in my books, and we charge $20k because the median student gets a ~$50k raise and we employ lots of staff to make that happen.

<3, Shawn

[A] http://www.hackreactor.com/student-outcomes, http://reactorcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/StandardSt...

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by Dr_tldr on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:27PM (#11874090)
So you were part of the group of schools that refused to agree to a transparency initiative (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11872261) but you think self-publishing your own methodology with zero breakdown of what your categories mean is just as good?

Like, where are all of the grads employed by Hack Reactor to pad the numbers accounted for? What percentage of your students already have a CS degree when they walk in the door? Why is the size of the average class increasing at the same time the price is going up? Most importantly, why do some big name companies effectively blacklist your graduates now, and what are you doing about it?

Your "towering accomplishment of staggering magnitude" looks like marketing hype and a lack of transparency.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by shawndrost on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:22PM (#11877515)
On Gregorio's blog post: We're on the side of the good guys. I introduced the point that Gregorio blogged about (has to do with how one accounts for tech-adjacent jobs) and we already keep track of the stats that way. You can read about what counts as "employed" in our methodology[1].

On grads employed by HR: they are not counted as successful job seekers. Again, you can read about this in the methodology.

On big name companies blacklisting our grads: I have literally never heard of this. Google was our # 2 employer in 2015.

[1] http://reactorcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/StandardSt...

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by wnmurphy on Sunday June 12, 2016 @04:16AM (#11887199)
Grads who choose to apply to mentoring jobs with Hack Reactor are not counted in the hiring stats. Once they leave and begin their engineering job search full time, they are.

Also, I believe there is only a single company that has 'blacklisted' HR grads, and it was because they had a bad interpersonal experience with a few people from a single cohort.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by testerofwaters on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:12AM (#11874242)
Just because they were one of the companies present does not mean they necessarily refused to agree to transparency.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by bwest87 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:08PM (#11877389)
Former HR grad here. I gotta back up Shawn, and HR in general. Hack Reactor is filled with lots of staff who care deeply. I graduated before the author's cohort, so I can't speak directly to the author's issues. But I can say the founders and the staff care deeply. If there was a rough patch, I know they'll fix it, and it sounds like they already have taken great strides to do so. But the author's main points just don't make sense. A 98% job placement rate is ludicrously good. Does a CS program have that rate? Maybe. But even if they do, it takes 4 years and 250k. HR is more than an order of magnitude less in both time and money, and this is being cited like they could do better? Seriously? Also, could you learn stuff on your own? Yeah of course you could. But you pay 20k because HR gives you an environment and team mates to learn from that you just can't get on your own. Also, they've iterated on the curriculum literally hundreds of times at this point (they do (or at least did) sprint reflections every 2 days, and actually implemented the feedback given). It's an excellent curriculum. The school is 100% worth it. I had a friend who just graduated a week ago, and said that "he had high expectations, and even those were blown away."

Even the author said they got a job after a couple months! Which is exactly what the school promised. How does the poster feel like they wasted their time/money??

Also, the author has no grounds to say HR isn't the best, cause they haven't been to others. I can't say it's the best either. I can say I had an excellent experience, and so did all of my class, and many others. And I do have 3 friends off the top of my head who have gone to other bootcamps, and they all cited those as having major problems (no help finding jobs, bad teachers). Anyway, this post sounds whiny. HR does excellent work.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by ChristianGeek on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:01PM (#11874004)
Have you considered a career in politics?
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by vanessa98 on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:09PM (#11874029)
Sounds like you owe the poster more than a beer
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by gk1 on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:23PM (#11874074)
Seriously. The author feels as though they've lost $20k and months of their time, and the co-founder thinks the right response is to offer a beer and a chat.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by yompers888 on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:08AM (#11874420)
Grandparent is asking for help, not offering repayment in the form of a beer. It's certainly not going to happen if the article's author also sees it as a compensatory transaction. Recognizing that the author has taken some time to consider what may be serious flaws in his program, GP is hoping that the author's desire to pave a better path for others may extend to helping him think about his own program critically.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by ns42 on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:09PM (#11879092)
The author also landed a job paying 6 figures after the program. To me it sounds like she got exactly what she paid for, the process just wasn't as perfectly amazing as she had hoped. She claims she could've done it without the program, but that's a pretty easy claim to make with no way of backing it.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by testerofwaters on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:13AM (#11874251)
Why do you feel like he is entitled to a refund?
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by gk1 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:48AM (#11874363)
I never said that.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by testerofwaters on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:51AM (#11874373)
Yes, but you basically implied he deserves "more."
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by gk1 on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:00AM (#11874401)
No. Imagine offering a stick of gum to someone whose dog just died. If I suggest that's an inappropriate response, I am not implying they should've offered more gum.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by hrgrad on Friday June 10, 2016 @05:11AM (#11875158)
This post shows a lack of owning up to mistakes and makes me question whether things are moving in the right direction. It wasn't that people were gaming admissions, the admissions process was broken. I took the admissions challenge twice, my second test was virtually identical to the first one. People I talked to from cohorts before and after me took basically the same test.

If you use the same test for months the fact is the answers will leak. People that take it again will do well the second time, regardless of whether they are qualified. This is a failure on your part, not on the applicants part. You need to own up to this and not blame applicants for gaming the admissions process.

It is understandable that we didn't know who you were and couldn't trust you. I have never seen you in my life. I saw Marcus one time in the first week. Talking about how you are going to change things for the future is fine, but it doesn't help those who went through the "troubled period".

It just leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth when things go south that you rush to blame people "gaming the admissions process" and not we screwed up, we are fixing it for the future, and here is how we are helping those affected.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by shawndrost on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:26PM (#11877547)
We screwed up, we are fixing it for the future, and if there is any unemployed recent grad that isn't already hearing from us weekly they should email me. Thanks for the feedback -- I agree with you 100% that we're accountable for these things.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by paulcole on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:42PM (#11874155)
> 1) Candidates were gaming the admissions process -> we rewrote it.

Would love to hear a more thorough explanation of this.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by forthefuture on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:18AM (#11874278)
When I took the technical interview ~3 months ago there were very specific questions about functional programming ("implement foreach" kind of questions). Makersquare had the same exact questions, so I assume someone just posted them online and people could easily prepare without understanding.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by paulcole on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:49AM (#11874366)
If that's the case, the lack of follow up questions to identify that kind of faking it is pretty horrifying. Was there nothing like, "explain this technical concept as if you were talking to your grandpa/non-technical person?"
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by forthefuture on Friday June 10, 2016 @07:47AM (#11875669)
I think even with follow up questions there's only so much you can ask. It was entirely possible to design a response such that your solution takes a good 20 minutes and doesn't leave much time for discussion. I ended up going over time on a recursion problem but still got in.

I actually liked the problems but it seems like there weren't enough different kinds of questions to filter out people with the answers beforehand.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by azat_co on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:35PM (#11879328)
Creating a dev bootcamp is not easy. I was there in almost the very beginning as a guest instructor. It's hard. Hack Reactor did a great job overall. It helped change the lives of many. The ROI is 200-300% over traditional CS degrees.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by analognoise on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:10PM (#11874033)
"we charge $20k because the median student gets a ~$50k raise"

Horseshit alert if I've ever heard one.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by lukebp on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:47PM (#11874168)
Hack Reactor grad here and former civil engineer. My raise was $40k and I came from a fairly high paying job relative to the rest of the civil engineers I knew. If I had come from an average civil engineering salary the raise would have been more along the lines of $55-$60k.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by azey47 on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:17PM (#11877464)
I was in HR15. I got a $70k raise. Went from working as a Junior accountant making $40k to Software Engineer making $110k (not even counting my $15k signing bonus). The ROI from the program is beyond ridiculous. Best experience of my life.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by seangrogg on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:21PM (#11874066)
Yeah, my raise was more along the lines of $140k. But I went from Shift Lead Walgreens to contract Web Developer at Google, so... there's that.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by jayzalowitz on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:38PM (#11874135)
Yeah, im gonna call bullshit on this one too.

You got into google because google actively recruits military vets, not because of the bootcamp experience, which might have helped get you over the hump, but unlikely caused it.

It took you 3 years between shift lead and google.

~your lovely neighborhood ex-people search engine founder.

P.S. thank you for your navy service (in all seriousness)

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by seangrogg on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:55PM (#11874193)
Google doesn't care about veteran status when it comes to their contracted employees as that pool comes from the ranks of the staffing agencies.

As far as the 3 years since Walgreens goes... - 1 year spent in college for CS before dropping out - 1 year spent self-teaching and working for a startup where I learned what "jQuery" and "AJAX" and "PHP" did =p - 3 months Hack Reactor - 6 months contract with Intel - currently at Google

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by analognoise on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:33PM (#11874113)
Right, because you can hire from the graduating class of Stanford, Berkeley, CMU, MIT, etc., and instead you choose a Walgreens Shift Lead from a "coding bootcamp."

Sounds legit.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by gk1 on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:41PM (#11874151)
Parent is being disingenious. They held 5 positions (plus military reserve) over a period of 4 years between "Walgreens Shift Lead" and "Web Application Developer" at a staffing agency.

I, too, got a six-figure "raise" from middle school to today.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by seangrogg on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:57PM (#11874202)
Considering there was less than a year between AudioThrift (where I was making ~$20k) and ink on the Google contract... I wouldn't think it's all that disingenuous.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by shoemai on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:36PM (#11874127)
50k to 100k median doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Myself and many people I know were in that range.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by ajhurliman on Friday June 10, 2016 @03:52AM (#11874871)
Code Fellows grad here. I went from a $50k mechanical engineering job to a $130k web dev job (consulting) directly after completing the program.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by lindsbot_ on Friday June 10, 2016 @12:34PM (#11877605)
HR06 grad here, went from making 25k at a restaurant to 110k at my first job out of HR. Obviously if you're working in the field beforehand the increase won't be as much, but far from horseshit for most grads.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by veebuv on Friday June 10, 2016 @09:32PM (#11881521)
Went from 55K consultant mech eng to 95K. Took a lot of self hustle and the HR marketing and alum outcome results.

If not this would have got to that number after maybe 2 years so definitely helped.

Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by hrgradaswell on Friday June 10, 2016 @01:07PM (#11877849)
chiming in here - i went from making salary ~80k at google in a non tech role, to 106k salary at a start up working remotely. i'd say with all the benefits at google, i probably made more with bonus, stock, and perks, but i'm happier now with what i'm doing - my work is more fulfilling. the investment i made in HR was worth it to me.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by arian19 on Friday June 10, 2016 @10:03AM (#11876384)
Hack Reactor 25 Grad here... I got a 93k raise after HR working at Google. Left to go to Apple less than a month after that.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by trednas on Friday June 10, 2016 @06:08PM (#11880493)
Hack Reactor Cohort 32 graduate here -- 50k bump in salary
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by davegonzalez on Friday June 10, 2016 @02:56PM (#11878959)
another HR06 grad here. worked as a customer support rep making $43k/year to $110k/year + 5k signing bonus right out of Hack Reactor.
Re:Confessions of a $20K bootcamp graduate by mkhpalm on Thursday June 09, 2016 @11:45PM (#11874162)
What is your profit margin per student at Hack Reactor?