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Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:19AM (#11854667)
> Protection from government censorship means an American can criticize President Obama as "a stupid incompetent Chief Executive" without fear of black helicopters surrounding the protester's home

This does not follow. Your narrow definition does nothing to stop a private organization, with its own motive for supporting the president, from deploying some black helicopters.

This is not a nit - any government is isomorphic to a perfect "Libertopia" where a single corporation owns everything. In other words, if you don't like a country's rules, then just leave their premises!

So in order to mean anything at all, the concept of Freedom of Speech (and really, any societal ideals) must mean something more general. We cannot simply create a basic foundation of rules, and then let emergent structure usurp any qualitative guarantees we had desired!

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by sanderjd on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:30AM (#11854733)
It seems to me that there are two separate legal structures that protect me from your hypothetical: 1. The government can't send black helicopters because of freedom of speech and 2. A private organization can't deploy black helicopters to take me into custody for any purpose (that's kidnapping). This is why it's important to hold government to a higher standard: they can legally do far more things than private organizations.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:59AM (#11854934)
First, OP said nothing about kidnapping - there's a lot of intimidation that can be done that isn't explicitly illegal. Even more that won't be prosecuted when say the "private organization" and "government" enjoy a cozy relationship.

But that scenario is based around "independent" reprisals. The real threat we are facing today is directly connected consequences...

> [government] can legally do far more things than private organizations

This completely misses my original point - both government and private organizations can do things that effectively punish. For example, a mall can kick you out and banish you for wearing an offensive T-shirt. This is not a problem when malls are but a small part of society, but form a restriction equivalent to government if one's entire society is made up of malls.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by stillsut on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @12:28PM (#11855560)
The confusion around this issue is generated by the rise of protected classes and the selective application of discrimination suits against institutions.

Title IX is a good example of a law which can be expanded to limit the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly by coercion. This has come about because federal funding is an indispensable portion of the modern research university's budget. As such, no 1 person, no 1 group can be allowed to threaten the University's compliance with the law. Therefore, the law enables the government to coerce the institution into severing its private contract with the offensive party - student or faculty. In effect, a government agency is able to punish political speech by proxy.

As 25% of the GDP, and probably upwards of 90% of the spending in many industries (e.g. defense contracting), the governments spending power has given it unforseen power to demand a trade of speech for access to economic opportunities. We need a law similar to "too big to fail" in sectors where the government has monopoly-like powers.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by jimmyk on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:05AM (#11854965)
>any government is isomorphic to a perfect "Libertopia" where a single corporation owns everything.

Do you not think the common belief that governments are of, for, and by the people, compared to the common belief that businesses are self-interested, results in differences in what those organizations can actually end up doing?

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:20AM (#11855073)
A corporation is of, for, and by the shareholders. A country can be thought of as a similar entity where every citizen gets a share.

I'm not saying the two are equivalent - distinguishing between the two could obviously be useful in a different discussion. I'm following this reduction to illustrate a contradiction.

System behavior cannot be met by creating the correct "axiomatic primitives" and then blindly building on them. We are computer scientists, and so we know that complexity eventually creates emergent behavior that likely contradicts our original goals. System behavior must be analyzed for its qualitative effects in the "big picture", to see if our goals are being met.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by sevenless on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:33AM (#11855167)
System behavior cannot be met by creating the correct "axiomatic primitives" and then blindly building on them. We are computer scientists, and so we know that complexity eventually creates emergent behavior that likely contradicts our original goals. System behavior must be analyzed for its qualitative effects in the "big picture", to see if our goals are being met.

That is the most succinct explanation I've heard yet for why virtually all of economics is wrong.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Daishiman on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @12:54PM (#11855788)
The primary motivations of corporations and governments are vastly different, and the exponentially larger expanse of governments gives it different properties in its operations.

They are both institutions, and as such share all the issues common to large bodies of humans trying to operate in unison, but the reductionism in the analogy is too big for it to be meaningful.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by tqi on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @12:32PM (#11855592)
Freedom of Speech doesn't protect you from a private organization deploying helicopters, but a whole lot of other laws do...
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by gnaritas on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:50AM (#11854871)
That "narrow" definition is called the 1st amendment, so it actually does follow because that's been the law for over 200 years. Laws against violence and assault stop private organization from deploying black helicopters to take you out.

> So in order to mean anything at all, the concept of Freedom of Speech (and really, any societal ideals) must mean something more general.

No, it has to mean nothing more and it's quite meaning as is.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:07AM (#11854981)
By your narrow definition, China and Thailand have complete freedom of speech. It's just that upon entering, you enter into a contract whereby you exchange money or time in jail to say things someone does not like.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by gnaritas on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @02:21PM (#11856519)
It's not "my narrow definition", it's the first amendment's definition.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:06PM (#11856908)
Codifying protection of a concept into law necessarily restricts the scope of any definition to what makes sense to express in law. This does not mean said resulting law covers the whole concept.

It is you who are choosing to adopt this law as the entirety of what the concept means to you.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by gnaritas on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @04:37PM (#11857586)
It's codified into law that way for a reason, any further guarantee about freedom of speech beyond non-government interference would be a violation of someone else's property rights. Your rights end where others begin and telling a company/person what they can and can't do with their own properties tramples on their rights. My website/land/newspaper/company etc are my property and I can censor you while on it if I wish because you have no right of free expression on my property.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:00PM (#11859032)
Yes, I don't disagree with what you've just said. But as I've been saying there is more to freedom of speech than what is possible to guarantee legally. For instance, there is definitely a lack of freedom of speech on twitter/facebook/etc. This does not automatically imply that they should be forced to carry disagreeable content or that their service should be nationalized. In this case, my statement is meant to encourage people to seek out Freer software.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by gnaritas on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @08:41PM (#11859208)
> For instance, there is definitely a lack of freedom of speech on twitter/facebook/etc.

I do not agree, Facebook is displaying the speech they choose to display and this is their exercise of their freedom of speech on their website. Same for twitter. Users have no right/reason to expect they can say anything on these private properties.

> In this case, my statement is meant to encourage people to seek out Freer software.

We agree on that.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by mindslight on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:21PM (#11859349)
So we're really just arguing over whether the term is a singular and specific, or can be a more general concept. To me, including nonidentical behavior that has similar effects on society is the better choice.

Furthermore, the actual text of the first amendment does not define freedom of speech, but explicitly references it as an external concept.