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Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:03AM (#11854155)
Most of those involve people entering into contracts or making agreements not to share information (pirating, medical information, insider trading, market manipulation, attorney-client privilege, jurors, probably anti-boycott?). Slander/Libel, obscenity and holocaust denial are the only ones on that list that I think are truly problematic.

I don't think holocaust denial should be a crime. Yes it's despicable, but I'd rather put it in the same category and hollow earthers and UFO spotters. We can't legislate people out of their own stupidity. It's not going to stop people holding such views or circulating them among themselves anyway, so it's utterly pointless.

For me Porn is easy too. If it only involves consenting adults, it's fine. If it doesn't then other crimes have been committed and distributing it is de facto complicity by association in those crimes.

That only leaves slander and libel. These are civil, not criminal matters and should be prosecuted as private matters based on the harm done to the individuals so slandered or libeled

I'd add incitement to commit crimes as an issue. But that falls under complicity or conspiracy to commit a crime. If the speech in question doesn't cross that line, then it should be free.

Anything left?

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by sievebrain on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:16AM (#11854231)
The anti-boycott law is absolutely a political restriction on freedom of speech: it prevents companies from answering questions about whether they source or interact with Israel and exists specifically to try and stop citizens mounting grassroots campaigns against Israeli actions. It's specifically intended to crush organised resistance to a foreign (!) government, which is the point of censorship.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:30AM (#11855148)
+1 I think you make a reasonable argument. I'm not entirely sure that companies should enjoy the same protections as individuals. Being an employee places you under contractual obligations that may restrict your freedom of speech, which can be resonable as I discussed previously. I'm open to being persuaded on this specific issue.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Sacho on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:52PM (#11863623)
> For me Porn is easy too. If it only involves consenting adults, it's fine. If it doesn't then other crimes have been committed and distributing it is de facto complicity by association in those crimes.

You only have to deal with what "consenting adults" means(currently a hotbed of political discussion and activity), and what "distribution" means(a fundamental question behind the drug war, copyright infringement, and so on).

> I'd add incitement to commit crimes as an issue. But that falls under complicity or conspiracy to commit a crime. If the speech in question doesn't cross that line, then it should be free.

And where this line lies is not a topic of contention.

> That only leaves slander and libel. These are civil, not criminal matters and should be prosecuted as private matters based on the harm done to the individuals so slandered or libeled

That doesn't really explain how to define slander or libel, whether there should be exceptions to them ("fair commentary" based on presented facts, statements about public figures, minor errors..), whether there's a mens rea requirement to defamation, etc.

Most of these things are examples of contentions with not just a moral idea of freedom of speech but with the narrower First Amendment in the US. Legislating speech is complicated precisely because it has so much power and value. If it weren't both wonderful and dangerous, we wouldn't bother...talking...so much about it.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Dylan16807 on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:00AM (#11854941)
> other crimes have been committed and distributing it is de facto complicity by association in those crimes

How do you feel about news broadcasts showing murders?

Or trespassers?

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:25AM (#11855103)
I feel fine about them, thanks for asking. I think it's reasonable to make a distinction between those and images of sexual crimes on the basis of protecting the victims depicted in illegal pornography. Reportage also serves a valuable informative social purpose which images of sex crimes do not serve.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Dylan16807 on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:48AM (#11855281)
What if the victims of the sex crime are dead (of natural causes)?

How about non-reporters using murder footage for some dumb purpose like background footage to their halloween album?

You can draw reasonable lines, but it's in a very different place from "depicts a crime yes/no".

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @12:00PM (#11855364)
> What if the victims of the sex crime are dead (of natural causes)?

Still ok to ban it. Clearly I am putting pornography in a different category from other forms of images and 'speech' but I'm comfortable doing so.

> How about non-reporters using murder footage for some dumb purpose like background footage to their halloween album?

Fine.

> You can draw reasonable lines, but it's in a very different place from "depicts a crime yes/no".

I agree. Depicting crimes isn't the problem, there's the issue of preventing incitement and blocking avenues for funding criminal activities. Pornography is so particularly and differently vulnerable to these abuses that I think special treatment under the law is reasonable.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by rmc on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:25AM (#11854313)
EU data protection law doesn't require contracts.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:36AM (#11855185)
I think it's reasonable to place legal obligation on people and organisations that collect data on others. The data isn't their speech even if they own it, in the same way that I can own a book but the author has the copyright because it's in some sense their speech and not mine even though it's in my posession. Data protection laws are an enforced default contract in the same way as copyright. I think it's reasonable to assign rights to individuals over data about them, or pass laws obout how that data should be managed.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Lawtonfogle on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @02:24PM (#11856550)
So if I share a video of a murder or theft... or even just view such a video shared by others, I'm complicit in the crime?
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @06:12AM (#11861181)
No. I was specifically talking about pornography. As I explained replying to later comments from other posters, before you posted your comment, I think the dynamics driving pornography are different enough to treat it as a special case.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:33AM (#11862143)
But I never read any explanation as to why the dynamics are different. Especially considering that films of other crimes can be porn to the right individual (such as snuff).
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by LamaOfRuin on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:31AM (#11854354)
Defamation laws can be criminal.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by simonh on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @11:29AM (#11855132)
I don't think they should be though. Restrictions on free speech should be narrowly restricted to the enforcement of other laws, as in the example I gave of it being reasonable for it to be illegal to incite crimes. I think defamation should be a civil matter.