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Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by pmoriarty on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:22AM (#11840807)
This may come as a shock to the layperson, but there's more to artificial intelligence than neural nets, and many non-NN AI approaches could arguably be said to "learn", and are thus "machine learning" too, depending on your definition.

I'm thinking of evolutionary algorithms, various other biologically inspired computation techniques (of which NN's are but one example), more traditional AI techniques such as expert systems, and a whole host of stochastic, non-biologically inspired algorithms.

I'm not super familiar with NN's myself, so I can't say whether the gigantically disproportionate attention from the media and the research community is deserved based on actual superiority in effectiveness of NN's compared to other techniques, or whether they're used and talked about mostly because that's what most people know.

It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of a non-NN AI researcher regarding this.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by hacker42 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @11:39AM (#11841495)
The answer to the question which technique will lead to AI depends on who you ask.

Geoffrey Hinton and Jürgen Schmidhuber are convinced that neural nets trained with backprop will likely lead to AI with minimal additional fixed-function structure. Schmidhuber's intuition is that recurrent neural networks (RNNs) are capable of universal computation, so given sufficient computational resources the RNN can learn any task, including generalization, goal and action selection and everything else that we associate with intelligence. Hinton's intuition is that RNNs essentially accumulate representations in their hidden state vectors that are very similar to human thoughts ("thought vectors"). Hinton thinks that thought vectors will naturally lead to the kind of reasoning that humans are capable of. In his view the human brain is basically a reinforcement-modulated recurrent network of stacks of autoencoders (needed for unsupervised representation learning).

Pedro Domingo sees such universally that may lead to AI in all major fields of AI: (1) Symbolists have inverse deduction (finding a general rule for a set of observations), (2) Connectionists have backprop and RNNs (see above) (3) Evolutionists have genetic programming (improvement of programs via selection, mutation and cross -over), (4) Bayesianists have incremental integration of evidence using Bayes' theorem, e.g. dynamic Bayes networks, and finally (5) Analogizers have kernel machines and algorithms to compare things and create new concepts.

Domingo's hypotheses is basically that only a combination of various of these approaches will lead to AI.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by hcarvalhoalves on Sunday June 05, 2016 @01:10PM (#11841914)
It's also possible that all these approaches (1-5) are different viewpoints of some more fundamental, underlying concept/description of intelligence and will converge at some point (as happened to Turing Machines vs. Lambda Calculus). This would be very interesting.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:43PM (#11841774)
Is there a proof that generalization or goal and action selection or other things associated with intelligence are actually computable?

If the Strong Free Will theorem is right, there are distinct limits on the ability of computational devices to simulate our physics.

For one, anything a computable machine does "on its own" will be a function of the past history of the universe (deterministic), whereas the SFWT says that elementary particles are free to act without regard to the entirity of history.

E: even a one word reply conveys so much more than an anonymous downmod.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by kabouseng on Sunday June 05, 2016 @02:02PM (#11842184)
I didn't downvote you but I suppose the criticism would be that our machines are built from the same elementary particles that a brain is, so why would our machines suddenly be so deterministic as to disallow strong ai but a brain is not.

Furthermore a ai does not compute a physics model any more than a brain does, so the criticism does not apply.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @02:12PM (#11842238)
But the theory of the machines is entirely deterministic. Any non-deterministic behavior of a machine would be considered an error under any approaches being discussed here.

The point is that the universe can do things that functions cannot. If your only tool is functions (only thing that algorithms can compute), then you will necessarily be unable to handle all possibilities (by which point, I question your intelligence).

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by lukeschlather on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:00PM (#11842811)
Functions routinely use random number generators. Pretty much all AI/Machine Learning techniques use non-determinism as part of their design.

But even so, it's confusing to phrase intelligence in terms of non-determinism. It's easy to come up with a non-deterministic answer to an arbitrary question. It's hard to come up with a correct answer to an arbitrary question. If unpredictability is a component of sound reasoning, it's because we humans are so bad at reasoning.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:12PM (#11843151)
Pseudo-random generators, for sure, which are entirely deterministic. It does not even matter if you had a source of truly random numbers. Given the same sequence of numbers, an algorithm will return the same result. That is what it means to be a function.

The problem is not that, "my answer must be 'unpredictable'", but, "the actual answer may not be computable" (and so, no algorithm may ever derive it).

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by botw on Sunday June 05, 2016 @11:02PM (#11844391)
That is why random generator has seed, which sometimes considers non-deterministic factors such as hardware noise and environment noise.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by ScottBurson on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:30PM (#11842646)
I think if the one-word reply had been offered, it would say: "Dualism".

Dualism is a very lonely position around HN. You and I may be the only dualists here.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by hacker42 on Monday June 06, 2016 @06:51AM (#11845781)
I think none of the things I've mentioned rule dualism completely out, but they likely restrict the possibilities of where to find it.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by Dn_Ab on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:14PM (#11843426)
I did not downvote (and you're clear now) but your post is not a relevant argument. The determinism that the SFWT is arguing against is that of certain hidden variable theories of quantum mechanics. It states that if the humans are free to choose particular configurations for an experiment measuring this or that spin, then bounded by relativity and experimentally verified aspects of quantum mechanics, the behaviors of the particles cannot be dependent on the past history of the universe. The main characters are the particles, people are incidental.

> "Our argument combines the well-known consequence of relativity theory, that the time order of space-like separated events is not absolute, with the EPR paradox discovered by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen in 1935, and the Kochen-Specker Paradox of 1967"

So as far as I can tell, it takes for granted the humans' ability to choose the configurations freely, which though suspect in of itself doesn't matter so much to their argument as it's not really an argument for free will, it's a discussion of how inherent to quantum mechanics non-determinism is.

> "To be precise, we mean that the choice an experimenter makes is not a function of the past."

> "We have supposed that the experimenters’ choices of directions from the Peres configuration are totally free and independent."

> "It is the experimenters’ free will that allows the free and independent choices of x, y, z, and w ."

It is actually, if anything, in favor of no distinction between humans and computers (more precisely, it is not dependent on humans, only a "free chooser") as they argue that though the humans can be replaced by pseudo random number generators, the generators need to be chosen by something with "free choice" so as to escape objections by pendants that the PRNG's path was set at the beginning of time.

> The humans who choose x, y, z, and w may of course be replaced by a computer program containing a pseudo-random number generator.

> "However, as we remark in [1], free will would still be needed to choose the random number generator, since a determined determinist could maintain that this choice was fixed from the dawn of time."

There is nothing whatsoever in the paper that stops an AI from having whatever ability to choose freely humans have. The way you're using determinism is more akin to precision and reliability—the human brain has tolerances but it too requires some amount of reliability to function correctly, even if not as much as computers do. In performing its tasks, though the brain is tolerant to noise and stochasticity, it still requires that those tasks happen in a very specific way. Asides, the paper is not an argument for randomness or stochasticity.

> ” In the present state of knowledge, it is certainly beyond our capabilities to understand the connection between the free decisions of particles and humans, but the free will of neither of these is accounted for by mere randomness."

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:57PM (#11843589)
If an AI is an algorithm, then it will be unable to produce "answers" to what we observe. That is the relevance. One would need to show a contradictory example to the theorem to ignore it.

>There is nothing whatsoever in the paper that stops an AI from having whatever ability to choose freely humans have.

There is if an AI is dependent on deterministic methods. I agree that AI is not a well-defined term, but all proposals I have seen are algorithms, which are entirely deterministic. This is entirely at odds with the human conception of free choice. An algorithm will always produce the same choice given the same input. Any other behavior is an error.

The SFWT says that observations can be made that cannot be replicated through deterministic means, which would seem (I agree there is a very slight leap in logic here) to rule out any AI from ever being able to understand at least some aspects of our reality (and also reveals them to be simple, logical machines, with no choice).

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by bllguo on Monday June 06, 2016 @02:38PM (#11849133)
Algorithms are not by definition deterministic, which seems to be one of your key points. Probabilistic algorithms exist. They may or may not be used in machine learning currently, but they do exist.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jsprogrammer on Monday June 06, 2016 @03:02PM (#11849366)
Can you provide an example? All probabilistic algorithms I have seen rely on a pseudo-random generator a rely on an external source if numbers. I have argued elsewhere in these comments that both cases my be considered deterministic.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by kmiroslav on Sunday June 05, 2016 @10:21AM (#11841087)
NN are being talked about because they have been excessively effective at advancing the state of the art in areas that were previously in a dead end.

Computer vision is such a field. The results provided by conventional approaches had been plateauing for years and then one day, Yann Le Cunn submitted a paper describing the work that he and his team had done in the area with neural networks and which blew away the previous results on image recognition.

Interestingly, this paper was rejected and it took a full year to the CV community to finally turn around and accept NN as a valid approach to this problem. I believe no one questions that it's the best methodology we have today.

Speech recognition, automatic translation and natural language processing in general are other areas that have benefited immensely from neural networks.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jameshart on Sunday June 05, 2016 @01:51PM (#11842119)
So this is what confuses me about what is 'new' with respect to deep learning. Neural nets are not new - I was aware of the existence of, and some of the basic ideas behind, neural nets as a technology in the 1990s and I wasn't even involved in computer science, so I assume that means that even then they were a mainstream AI technique.

When I read content about 'deep learning' neural nets today I don't see anything especially different to what my (admittedly shallow) understanding of neural nets was back then. So what I'm missing mainly is - what changed? Is it just that advances in compute power mean that problems for which neural nets were impractical have now become practical? Is there something different about the way neural nets are employed in 'deep learning' that is different than the neural nets that were discussed in the past?

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by Eliezer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:16PM (#11842566)
Previously, neural networks were trained by taking single steps down the direction of sharpest gradient for the network. However, in deep networks with lots of layers, the backprop algorithm (which I assume you already know about) got stuck in local minima.

Deep learning got started when Hinton observed that a certain way of training restricted Boltzmann machines wouldn't get stuck as easily, and hence by pretraining the network as if it were an RBM and then switching to backprop, it wouldn't get stuck in a local minimum as early.

As I understand it, nowadays the best method looks something like a generalization of Newton's Method, wherein the direction you move takes into account the second differential and not just the first differential or direction of sharpest descent. You move furthest in the directions that curve the least, and move the least in the directions that are most sharply curved. It turns out that this (plus some other tricks) make it way easier to follow continuous gradients in big weird parameter spaces, so now it's possible to train deep nets, which are a kind of continuous gradient in a big weird parameter space.

Tl/dr: People figured out how to move better through the parameter space of neural networks, by taking into account the second differential plus some other tricks. So now we can train deeper nets.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by duckingtest on Friday June 17, 2016 @06:04PM (#11925841)
While there are newer algorithms (almost all first order btw), one of the most commonly used for deep convnets, sgd with momentum, is from the 80s. It really is mostly about computing power - one gtx 1080 has more tflops than world's fastest supercomputer till 2001 [0]. The actual speed difference is probably an order of magnitude larger due to an absence of communication overhead and latency inherent in sharing work across thousands of separate cpus and lots of slow ram. That would make one gtx 1080 equivalent - for neural net training purposes - to a supercomputer from 2004.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_supercomputing#Hist...

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by ecater on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:33PM (#11842973)
More specifically techniques such as Momentumn https://www.willamette.edu/~gorr/classes/cs449/momrate.html (great article visualizing the problem space discussed above) and thigns like RMSPROP http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~tijmen/csc321/slides/lecture_slid... are used.

The rectified linear unit also converges about 75% faster than the classic Sigmoid or Tanh. the ReLu is F(x) = max(0, x) so the gradient propogated is 1 rather than a more "curvy" value.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by jameshart on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:33PM (#11842668)
Thank you! That makes a lot of sense.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by esfandia on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:25PM (#11843215)
Thanks, this explanation made a lot of sense to me.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:42PM (#11841763)
>> Speech recognition, automatic translation and natural language processing in general are other areas that have benefited immensely from neural networks.

In NLP in particular, I'm not so sure about the "immense" benefit of ANNs. LSTM-RNNs are very nice for language modelling but we haven't seen the 10-percentile jump in performance that the image processing community has. Stanford I believe uses ANNs in their dependency parser (to learn transitions) and Google of course uses ANNs everywhere, but the gains against goold old HMMs are nowhere near the gains in image processing and it's not clear what exactly is the difference. Maybe teams have better hardware and more data now. Rather, they definitely do, so maybe that's the reason for any increases in performance.

With translation in particular (it's a branch of NLP) it's very hard to know what's going on. Companies who sell machine translation products still use different techniques, including rule-based software. The problem is that machine translation needs some way to deal with semantics, else it's a bit shit. Google again- they do use ANNs (apparently- it's hard to tell because they don't) but is their translation any better than others'? That's almost impossible to know, because there are no good measures of machine translation performance. I'll repeat that: we don't have any good measures of machine translation performance. So anyone can come up with a solution and drum it up as "state-of-the-art", and if their user base is large enough it'll be impossible for anyone (even themselves) to know for sure whether that means anything.

Speech recognition- I don't know much about that, but I think it's similar to NLP. You can do a lot with a lot of data and hardware, if you're lucky to have them and at that point it doesn't really make a real difference to your end-user if you're using an ANN model or an HMM model.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by praccu on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:48PM (#11841804)
DNNs have lead to massive improvements in speech, specifically in the acoustic model. RNN based language models interpolated with modified kn smoothed ngrams (often plus some other cool stuff) are also the state of the art, although they're often too slow to use in practice.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:53PM (#11841828)
Thank you - I stand corrected, although I think the "too slow to use in practice" bit is possibly what I had in mind.

Which may just go to show that Hinton, Schmidhuber and the rest of the connectionist gang are right about the value of more data and faster computers.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by sukilot on Sunday June 05, 2016 @01:11PM (#11841919)
What justification does a journal have for rejecting an objectively groundbreaking result, just for using an unfashionable technology?
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by kmiroslav on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:25PM (#11843693)
Here is Yann's summary of the situation back then:

https://plus.google.com/+YannLeCunPhD/posts/gurGyczzsJ7

I seem to remember this article as having a lot of very interesting comments, including from the chairman of the conference. The exchange was cordial but showed some clear antagonism between the two parties. Somehow, I don't see these comments any more on Google+.

That was four years ago, things are a lot better now.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by rspeer on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:12AM (#11844797)
Things are better for neural nets because they've become fashionable. But nothing changed to make the peer review process tolerate unfashionable technologies.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:26PM (#11841680)
>> more traditional AI techniques such as expert systems

I believe you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that describes expert systems as "learning" in any way. They're typically considered as the antithesis of machine learning: they're knowledge-driven but you have to enter all the knowledge "by hand". Indeed some machine learning algorithms were proposed as ways to automate the creation of the large rule-bases typical of expert systems (the most prominent such algorithm being Decision Trees).

>> It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of a non-NN AI researcher regarding this.

Researchers are rarely as proscriptive as that. You may find folks who specialise in ANNs to the exclusion of other techniques (but it's true it's a vast field) but you'll probably not find anyone who wouldn't try ANNs a couple of times, and maybe publish a paper or two on them. Same goes for other trendy algorithms also.

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by NhanH on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:29AM (#11840837)
I've been looking to learn more about non-machine learning AI research for the past couple of months (essentially, something that is the spiritual successor to the GOFAI/expert system path instead of the currently popular statistical machine learning path). For some reasons it's quite hard. I'd appreciate if anyone can point me to the state of the research in those areas? (Conferences, research groups' names etc).
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by sbw1 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @12:50PM (#11841812)
Classic non-ML AI research these days sometimes tends to be baked into the background of systems where deep learning is the star-- e.g., all of the search techniques used in AlphaGo are interesting in their own right, but aren't really where the innovation is there.

There are researchers actively looking at more holistic AI systems that aren't just the core learning part (often called cognitive architectures). For instance, take a look at Soar: http://soar.eecs.umich.edu/

It under active development, and has been since the 80s. Soar is very much a spiritual successor to GOFAI (or maybe still is GOFAI), but does incorporate statistical machine learning-- much of the recent work has been around integrating reinforcement learning with symbolic decision-making.

ACT-R is another cognitive architecture under active development, but is more used for cognitive modeling (i.e. psychology research): http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/

You can find other related systems by searching for "cognitive architecture", but it is unfortunately a field that attracts a lot of proposals/'designs' for things that never get properly implemented (the above being two notable exceptions).

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by YeGoblynQueenne on Sunday June 05, 2016 @01:01PM (#11841871)
If you're looking for symbolic approaches within machine learning, Luc De Raedt's textbook has the works:

http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783540200406

Lise Getoor from MIT is also doing a lot of work with statistical relational learning in particular, which is kind of a cross between GOFAI (the "relational" bit) and nouveau AI (the "statistical" part):

http://www.cs.umd.edu/srl-book/

In the UK I know of Kristian Kersting who does statistical relational learning research, at Dortmund:

http://www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de/PERSONAL/kersting.html

I think this is not exactly what you were asking for but I think you might find it interesting, particularly Inductive Logic Programming (of which there's oodles in De Raedt's book).

Personally, I started an MSc in AI because I was interested in all the symbolic stuff, and I was a bit disappointed to find there were almost none of that left in the curriculum (at my school anyway, the University of Sussex). I guess I kind of see the point though- knowledge engineering is pretty hard and costly and learning from data is very attractive. I really don't like the idea of doing it all with statistical black-boxes, though. So relational learning is a kind of halfway house for me, where I can still use mathematical logic principles and not have to eat the statisticians' dust, so to speak. For me relational learning is the spiritual successor of GOFAI that I was looking for, so I think you may find something of interest in the links above.

Edit: there's also the probabilistic logic programming community, forgot about them; here:

https://dtai.cs.kuleuven.be/problog/

That's from the University of Leuven, where De Raedt is from. The name says it all: Horn clauses with probabilistic weighting. So that's not machine learning (or any kind of learning, it's just what it says on the tin). You will find many more here:

http://probabilistic-programming.org/wiki/Home

Although that's not all _logic_ programming (but there's quite a bit of it).

Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by anantzoid on Sunday June 05, 2016 @01:09PM (#11841907)
In fact, the recent massive success of Deep Neural Nets have led to the terms 'Artificial Intelligence', 'Machine Learning' and 'Deep Learning' being used interchangeably. This was not the case till early 2015. In order to inform the masses about the breakthroughs, the media started generalising DNNs as AI, and also because this was the only AI technique to show such results.
Re:What is the difference between deep learning and usual ma... by wahern on Monday June 06, 2016 @03:41PM (#11849684)
A state-of-the-art handwriting recognition algorithm was published late last year, based on a new approach the authors termed Bayesian Program Learning: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332