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Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by dang on Friday May 27, 2016 @05:08PM (#11789032)
Please don't post comments like this to HN. It amounts to trolling. Intentionally or not, the effect is the same.

Religious flamewars and religious litigation are off topic here. They aren't new, they aren't interesting, and they reliably set a bunch of people off.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by iLoch on Friday May 27, 2016 @01:51PM (#11787675)
"I don't claim to know God's plan."
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:05PM (#11787757)
From a Christian perspective - Yes - even the choking. there's an aspect of God's will that is permissive - it is thought that God permits evil because it could allow for a higher good such as free will. Though this can't be said for sure.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by visakanv on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:25PM (#11787886)
What about aggressive childhood leukaemia? Why does God do that? Genuinely curious to understand.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Friday May 27, 2016 @08:13PM (#11789979)
Let's make the question as hard as possible: The child dies a lingering, painful death and the child despairs.

The annoying bit is that the Christian answer to this question sucks from a rational viewpoint - we humans cry out for our own justice against this God that allows such suffering.

Just be mindful before you assume that Christians are completely crazy, that for from our viewpoint God suffers as well - not only does he love this child, but he also died for this child - in order that all of us could be drawn to him.

The Christian term for this suffering is his "passion" - in that he longs to be with each and every one of us as an individual.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by visakanv on Saturday May 28, 2016 @08:22AM (#11791395)
So does that... God is some sort of... sadomasochist? (I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive, I'm really just trying to understand.)
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Saturday May 28, 2016 @03:04PM (#11792901)
Good question!

It really seems that from our viewpoint is would seem so!

The Christian viewpoint is that suffering will be redeemed - God promises us that he will "wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Revelation of St. John 21:4)

As Christians, one of the problems that we create is that we try to make all "make sense." We can't - because we don't have the full picture. As such, I have to apologize that my answer for the problem of evil isn't satisfactory.

Here's a good overview from a theological and rational viewpoint:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by azinman2 on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:00PM (#11788517)
"God works in mysterious ways"

(as does the flying spaghetti monster, the tooth fairy and santa)

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by jeffcox on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:29PM (#11787906)
People enthralled by mysticism will find a dozen explanations for everything that contradicts their beliefs.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by Numberwang on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:18PM (#11787839)
Nihilism, gotcha.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by vinceguidry on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:23PM (#11787870)
Nihilism is the position that nothing outside of the immediate has meaning. It's a polar opposite to theism, which places meaning in the hands of one or more deities.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by lomnakkus on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:21PM (#11787866)
... but then God surely can't be omnibenevolent!? (But perhaps that doctrine's been abandoned?)

I'm just pointing out the contradictions in "classic" Christianity. Regardless of all that, unless we somehow come up with a coherent and agreed-upon definition of God, I don't suspect anyone's mind will be changed by logical argument. And, thus, I defeat my own argument.

EDIT: I mean, it was Epicurus (~2000 years ago!) who first put this argument forward and I don't think anyone's ever come up with a good answer, so I'm forced to think that the problem is either a) coming up with a satisfactory definition of God, or b) belief in God is not determined by rational reasoning.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by montecarl on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:42PM (#11787999)
I'm not a Christian, but I've thought about this from time to time. God could be omnibenevolent, but just not on terms that humans can understand. Humans only know about what happens during life and do not understand what happens after death.

There is a pretty cool short story The Egg that relates to this. I won't ruin it by trying to describe it myself. You can read it here: http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by lomnakkus on Saturday May 28, 2016 @11:47AM (#11792061)
> I'm not a Christian, but I've thought about this from time to time. God could be omnibenevolent, but just not on terms that humans can understand

I thought that was the whole mandate? I mean, if $DEITY didn't have our best (human-centered) interests at heart, then was does $DEITY actually do?

(EDIT: I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it. I just really don't understand the reasoning behind this and how anyone can accept the reasoning.)

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by gnaritas on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:38PM (#11787979)
> b) belief in God is not determined by rational reasoning.

There are no rational arguments for a belief in God, so this is the answer. All belief in any gods is irrational by nature.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by lomnakkus on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:45PM (#11788013)
I think I might agree if you changed "belief" to "faith"[1]. "Belief" can be informed by evidence (flawed or not), but "faith" is explicit belief-without-evidence. The latter -- I agree -- is a terrible idea, but presumably some of the people who have a "belief" in a higher being have some sort of evidence[2]. That doesn't mean that I would automatically dismiss them, but I would argue that they perhaps haven't learned enough about how to critically evaluate evidence.

EDIT: A mildly interesting observation: There's one kind of evidence that believers use that's actually routinely accepted in a court of law, namely Eyewitness Testimony (e.g. "I saw the Virin Mary!" in the religious context). More interestingly, Eyewitness Testimony has been shown to be incredibly unreliable for finding out what really happened.

[1] The distinction is somewhat technical, but it's a Big Deal(TM) in Philosophy.

[2] Though, it's probably not the sort of evidence that's accepted by anyone else. (Revelation, that kind of thing.)

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by gnaritas on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:38PM (#11788812)
> but presumably some of the people who have a "belief" in a higher being have some sort of evidence[2]

As you've noted, their evidence isn't the kind worth considering and is thus not good evidence and thus is not rational to conclude a belief with. I stand by my statement, there is not a rational reason to believe in any gods of any sort. That doesn't mean people don't believe, or don't claim they have evidence, it merely means their beliefs/evidence is not rational and is easily picked apart by actual rational thinking. There aren't any arguments for gods that aren't just bad arguments that presuppose God.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Saturday May 28, 2016 @01:24AM (#11790685)
As a Christian, I would agree - God's revelation stands in opposition to human rationality. Examples: He demands that we love our enemies. Give away our possessions. Have faith where there is absolutely no hope in anything after our minds disintegrate after death.

The Bible addresses this: "We are fools for Christ [...] We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!" 1 Corinthians 4:10

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by lomnakkus on Saturday May 28, 2016 @11:24AM (#11791950)
> As a Christian, I would agree - God's revelation stands in opposition to human rationality.

But then... how do you know anything if you can just "faith it!" instead? I mean, if I could choose to just believe things "because" then that's obviously a lot easier (cognitively) than reasoning my way through it[1], but it's not very satisfactory, philosophically.

[1] Obviously that process could still lead to a lot of wrong, so it's not perfect. The point is that it's adaptive.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Saturday May 28, 2016 @03:10PM (#11792934)
I agree! Fundamentally you can't know God's revelation to us. To be a Christian is to be filled with tremendous doubt and to always engaged in a deep struggle with faith.

The flip side is that our rational thoughts always lead to the conclusion that we have meaningless existence: Either we die, or our universe collapses, or we change into something new. Sincere shows us we march to a death so complete that we don't even know we're dead.

The alternative Christian viewpoint - the crazy bible story about whales, arks, weird laws and a jewish man who claims to be God and yet dies - starts to sound like hope to some people.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by gnaritas on Saturday May 28, 2016 @04:07PM (#11793205)
> To be a Christian is to be filled with tremendous doubt and to always engaged in a deep struggle with faith.

I can simplify that further, to be Christian is to deny reason.

The struggle with faith is a struggle against reason, faith stands in opposition to reason and rightly should lose. That faith wins over reason is a testament to the failure of critical thinking on that topic. Belief should never triumph over reason otherwise one can believe anything and wind up forever lost in the infinity of delusions of the mind. Reason is how you separate fantasy from reality, which is a rather important skill to have.

> The flip side is that our rational thoughts always lead to the conclusion that we have meaningless existence

Yours might, but I'd assert those thoughts aren't rational nor is your definition of meaningless. Atheists have no problem at all finding meaning in their lives; to say a life without God is meaningless is quite frankly a completely nonsensical statement that can only make sense in the mind of a person unable to see beyond his own presupposition of God and small minded view of the world. You seem to forget you live in a world full of people who don't believe in your God whom you are basically asserting have meaningless lives because they don't share your particular superstition; it's really quite silly to believe that.

> The alternative Christian viewpoint - the crazy bible story about whales, arks, weird laws and a jewish man who claims to be God and yet dies - starts to sound like hope to some people.

It sounds insane to rational people, because it is. That anyone can actually believe that stuff is a sign of a complete lack of critical thinking skills on that subject.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by benjohnson on Saturday May 28, 2016 @08:50PM (#11794285)
I wasn't being clear:

As I understand it, from all known rational viewpoints everything about our lives are entirely meaningless because the evidence shows that nothing about our lives will remain or will be observed.

Everything about you will not exist in a few short years.

Everything ever built by anyone will either not exist or will be no longer have any energy (and no observer) once the universe collapses or goes through heat-death.

To be a Christian is to accept reason - and then to have hope.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by gnaritas on Sunday May 29, 2016 @12:09AM (#11794725)
> As I understand it, from all known rational viewpoints everything about our lives are entirely meaningless because the evidence shows that nothing about our lives will remain or will be observed.

I honestly don't think you do understand it if you think all known rational viewpoints see life as meaningless because that's simply not true. The lack of immortality does not make life meaningless; that's a belief your religion sold you.

"meaningless", you keep you that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

> Everything about you will not exist in a few short years.

So what? The same applies to everyone. Doesn't make life meaningless.

> Everything ever built by anyone will either not exist or will be no longer have any energy (and no observer) once the universe collapses or goes through heat-death.

Again, so what? Doesn't make life meaningless. I do not care what happens to the universe billions of years in the future and if you do, then that's something you could stand to reexamine because thinking that it makes life meaningless is not rational.

> To be a Christian is to accept reason - and then to have hope.

Hope, sure, but reason, I do not think so. You are basically asserting that lack of a God equals a meaningless existence, a completely foundation-less assertion entirely devoid of reason that can't be logically argued, only asserted as a circular argument that pre-supposes God's existence.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by nickff on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:37PM (#11787970)
Are you trying to pass this atheist passive-aggressiveness off as wit? If so, you should have come up with something more original than this trite phrase.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by azinman2 on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:04PM (#11788553)
I'm so sorry for offending your sensibilities. I'll try to do better next time.
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by dang on Friday May 27, 2016 @05:15PM (#11789072)
You've broken the HN guidelines twice, first by provoking a tedious religions flamewar and then by being personally uncivil. We ban accounts that do this. Please (re-)read the site guidelines and follow them. That means posting civil, substantive comments, or none at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by greenpizza13 on Friday May 27, 2016 @01:59PM (#11787717)
Yeah, this irks me as well. Why does this even have to come into play. Why not just thank Dr. Heimlich and give him all the well deserved credit?

This lady could have just as easily been one of the millions of people since the maneuver was invented to have not been sitting next to Dr. Heimlich when they began to choke.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by Styx- on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:09PM (#11787782)
Why shit all over someone else's way of viewing the world if it doesn't affect you?

And none of the nonsense about Christians that don't believe in global warming or abortions or something, because you have no idea of this woman's stance on any of that.

Disclaimer: I'm as agnostic as they come.

EDIT: Let me add that I think it's ridiculous to criticize religious people for being religious. It is regressive and promotes animosity between the religious and the rest of us. A truly religious person will sooner die than give up their religion.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by Panoramix on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:24PM (#11787878)
Nobody was shitting over anything.

I certainly do not think it's ridiculous to criticize religion. It's 2016, some supernatural beliefs should not get a free pass just because people will feel offended. However, choose your battles. Elderly people saying a very common phrase is hardly something to get worked up about.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by PKop on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:40PM (#11787993)
You make a bold assumption that "it doesn't affect you" (surely you'd agree this is up for debate no?), then the very next sentence describe political views that can be attributed directly to religious beliefs you're claiming have no affect on anyone.

All ideas should be up for criticism. It is the very nature of religion somehow being off limits for debate that allows bad ideas to go unchallenged and spread.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by Styx- on Friday May 27, 2016 @03:01PM (#11788142)
All ideas should be up for criticism, yes. But not all ideas should be criticized.

The difference being that some criticisms are productive (presumably fresh, creative takes on thinking about something) and some simply serve the purpose of making the critic feel good about himself.

In what way do we benefit to hear a criticism of religion for the umpteen-millionth time and on the internet of all places? No one is refining their thought processes, no one is benefiting.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by PKop on Friday May 27, 2016 @03:17PM (#11788239)
No one? The data flat out refutes that claim: http://religionnews.com/2014/08/01/five-signs-great-decline-...

Looks like many have been refining their thought process. Perhaps it's from all of the criticism on the internet?

Just because all minds won't be swayed doesn't mean some won't be.

I do think criticizing the idea is more valid than criticizing the person who believes in that idea.

It sounds like what you mean to say is not all ideas need to be criticized always and everywhere they are present. Makes sense.

If you mean that religion should not be criticized anymore we've done it enough.... I don't see how this is not that same as saying religion is an idea that should not be up for criticism. Why is it special?

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by Styx- on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:43PM (#11788852)
There is a time and place. An article about Dr. Heimlich in which some senior citizen invokes an age old remark isn't it.

Once you can show me the data on the benefit from that single remark, and that it doesn't correlate with the concept of 'diminishing returns' strongly, then I'll concede.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by umanwizard on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:12PM (#11787796)
Did I think I was on hackernews but accidentally visited reddit? (I've been here for long enough that I'm allowed to say that according to the rules, btw). How does a super facile refutation of people's traditional beliefs advance the discussion at all?
Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by ewzimm on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:17PM (#11787831)
While I completely understand why this is an annoying point of view, the apparent contradiction is well understood. The official theology of many religions is that everything good comes from God, everything bad comes from people. God gave people some freedom, and they abused it to create all the problems of the world, which he is constantly working to correct, but he leaves a lot of the negative effects of our choices for our own good because we need to understand how much we need him and lots of other mysterious reasons that we wouldn't understand because we're too limited to see the big picture.

It's totally legitimate to complain about not liking this point of view, but people do know what they're doing when they thank God for everything good and blame people for everything bad. I think it's important for non-religious people to understand that because so much of the world is religious and believes that God sets the standard for what's true, not the appearance of things which we're able to understand and reason through.

Re:Dr Heimlich saves choking woman with manoeuvre he invented by woodman on Friday May 27, 2016 @02:56PM (#11788113)
> ...everything bad comes from people.

You forgot the Devil, he gets blamed every so often.