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Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by rimantas on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @06:37AM (#1178002)

  The EFF is about electronic freedom
Maybe they should do something about GPL then. I find it limiting my freedom.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by lutorm on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @08:23AM (#1178127)
Maybe you shouldn't think so much about your freedom as about maximizing the total freedom. If that means you can't do everything you want, too bad.

When people in the US talk about freedom, they seem to only focus on the freedom of them to do what they want and disregard the possibility that their actions might have side effects.

Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by rimantas on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:14AM (#1178248)
First, I am not in US. Second, I don't see how limiting everyone's freedom maximizes it. Nor do I think that imposing some particular understanding of freedom does that. Consider me releasing my code under GPL in one case and MIT in another. Which leads to maximization of freedom for those who may be interested in reusing it?
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by lutorm on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @11:13AM (#1178581)
My comment was just an observation of common rhetoric here, not a direct response to you.

But re: limiting freedom: Do you think that giving everyone the freedom to kill people would be a net improvement of the freedoms of people when you take into account that people who are killed don't have any freedom at all.

It's so easy to say that freedom means that "I should be able to do what I want without regard for others". But thinking of freedom only in the active sense is an extremely naive idea of freedom. What about my freedom to remain free of the consequences of your actions?

Concrete example 1: SUVs disproportionately transfer risk to the occupants of smaller vehicles in the event of a collision. Is someone's freedom to choose to drive an SUV more important than my freedom to drive a Miata without undue risk of being killed by your SUV? Why do you think your lifestyle choice should be more important than mine?

Concrete example 2: In the US, some people think it's an essential freedom to be allowed to own firearms. This has lead to a proliferation of firearms which means that the US has the highest rate of gunshot deaths of any modern country. Why should people's freedom to own a firearm be more important than my freedom to go about my business without worrying about getting shot?

My point is: there's always a tradeoff. Not acknowledging that tradeoff is either disingenuous or naive.

Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by rimantas on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @12:24PM (#1178825)

  It's so easy to say that freedom means that "I should be
  able to do what I want without regard for others".
I never said anything like that. I am talking code, not SUVs and firearms there. I don't want some RMS or EFF or FSF telling others what they can and cannot do with my code just because they have some weird image of freedom.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by jrockway on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @06:37PM (#1179706)
They're not telling you that. License your own code under whatever license you want.

When you use my code I want you to be restricted. I want you to make all your changes publicly available to everyone, and if you make a hardware device that runs my code, I want you to make it possible for users to modify my code and be able to run it on that device.

If you don't want to agree to my conditions, don't run my code.

But this isn't about taking away freedom; I want there to be more freedom. Because of the conditions I impose, anyone can build off your work in addition to my work. More code, more freedom.

Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by loup-vaillant on Wednesday March 10, 2010 @03:52AM (#1180500)
> I want you to make all your changes publicly available to everyone […]

This phrasing was careless: it sounds like you want to prevent private modifications (freedom 1).

You're not the only one to make this mistake. Because of it, many people think the GPL forbids private modifications. Many don't like it because of this misconception, so we should mind our words.

Of course, I agree with the gist of your post.

Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by loup-vaillant on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:30AM (#1178291)
Your question is biased. I'd say only this: if the GPL gets in your way, that's because you want to distribute proprietary software, right? But if you care about freedom, why on Earth would you take it away from your users?
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by rimantas on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @12:20PM (#1178812)

  I'd say only this: if the GPL gets in your way, that's
  because you want to distribute proprietary software, right?
Wrong. Compare GPL to MIT and you will understand.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by loup-vaillant on Wednesday March 10, 2010 @03:36AM (#1180488)
I still don't understand. Please be explicit: what would you want to do that the GPL prevents you to do? Don't say "I want to distribute under another licence". If that's your reason, I would like to know why you would want to distribute under another licence (and beware circular reasoning). If you have another reason, please tell me because really, I have no idea.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by GHFigs on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:13AM (#1178245)
the total freedom

What does this mean?

Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by lutorm on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @11:02AM (#1178544)
Hard to define, I know. But I'm sure you agree that giving you the freedom to imprison people at will does not result in a net increase of freedom when you take into account the people affected by that.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by zppx on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @11:11AM (#1178572)
So, why the hell are you using some Apple software that is much more restrictive than the the GPL?
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by rimantas on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @12:26PM (#1178833)
Because it does not restrict me in any way.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by jrockway on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @07:41AM (#1178070)
The ability to take away other people's freedom is not freedom.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by ynniv on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:13AM (#1178246)
The GPL takes away other people's freedom.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by jrockway on Friday March 12, 2010 @02:05PM (#1187501)
If you consider taking away other people's freedom to be a freedom, which we already decided we don't.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by stcredzero on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @07:59AM (#1178096)
The ability to grant freedom is freedom? Freedom is "typeless?" Or is that a "meta-freedom?"
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by loup-vaillant on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:39AM (#1178314)
"not A implies not B" does not mean "A implies B".
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by stcredzero on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @10:34AM (#1178457)
I was thinking set theory, not just logic. And this is also a parody of trying to apply mathematical logic to ethics and politics.
Re:EFF on Apple's iPhone Developer Program Agreement by GHFigs on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:37AM (#1178312)
The GPL depends on copyright.