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Re:Housing in the Bay Area by sytelus on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:08PM (#11774482)
I highly doubt this bill would pass without severe modifications. The problem is that we have two groups in population: One who own houses and other who don't. First group don't want new houses and dilute value of their property. Politicans very well knows that making this group unhappy will end their careers. The second group is often in minority outside large cities. This is why its very hard to pass laws that would allow build new houses. It's great that SamA is taking interest in this. If enough valley billionaires can pay for lobbing then politicians can finally ignore their majority constituents and do the "right thing" :).
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by birken on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:28PM (#11774853)
Around 65% of the population in SF are renters. If it were simply homeowners vs renters, renters would win in a landslide.

Who do you think was pushing for proposition I (an 18 month development moratorium in the mission) to pass? It wasn't homeowners, that's for sure. It was renters living in the Mission who were (not incorrectly) terrified that new development means they will get evicted and displaced.

Why did 60% of SF voters (keeping in mind only 30% are homeowners) vote for Proposition B, requiring a city wide up-or-down vote on all new waterfront development over 40-80 feet? A measure that was also endorsed by multiple major newspapers? Because people are afraid of everything changing too quickly and the nice beautiful waterfront turning into midtown Manhattan.

It's complicated. This isn't homeowners giving the middle finger to everybody else. The situation is more akin to existing residents fighting against future residents. Though whatever the situation is, pointing fingers at individual constituencies instead of trying to understand the problem holistically is not helping anything.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by apsec112 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:49PM (#11774960)
"It was renters living in the Mission who were (not incorrectly) terrified that new development means they will get evicted and displaced."

New development as the cause of displacement is just outright misinformation. There has been very little development in the Mission:

https://rationalconspiracy.com/2015/05/25/new-york-times-mak...

There is an extremely strong negative correlation between development and housing prices across cities:

http://www.spur.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/asking.price...

This is an excellent writeup by Jason Furman, chief economic adviser to President Obama, which explains in detail how land use restrictions make cities expensive (and cause other problems besides):

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20...

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by justincormack on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:19AM (#11775384)
People presumably think it is. As a visitor there now a lot of SF looks quite low density low rise, but a lot of the buildings are very pretty and the low rise wooden houses are part of the charm. Not sure how much less dense than Tokyo it is but maybe 4x? As a Brit I love the history, but there are probably parts that could be rebuilt. But there is a high risk that they won't be built as high density, the fact that the proposal includes affordable is because the builders will infill high end mostly. You need to allow rebuild of low density at eg 10x at scale to get a fall in prices. Builders don't want that.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by lukeschlather on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:02PM (#11775041)
Are you sure that only 30% of SF voters are homeowners? Maybe in presidential elections (with 70% turnout), but in all the other elections where turnout ranges from 30-50% I wouldn't be surprised if homeowners make up more than half of actual voters.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:35PM (#11775192)
> It was renters living in the Mission who were (not incorrectly) terrified that new development means they will get evicted and displaced.

This is such a bizarre idea.

How exactly do renters get displaced by adding more housing?

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jacalata on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:28AM (#11776000)
Because new housing doesn't magically appear around existing tenants and their furniture. Existing tenants get told to leave, then there is construction for x months, then a new building is there with more units available, and (especially if the old building was under rent control) each new unit costs more than each old unit in the building that used to be there. And its possible none of the tenants who used to live in that building can afford to live in the replacement units - tada, displacement by adding more apartments.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by bagels on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:51PM (#11775257)
Because the actual building they live in gets demolished to build another building. Or because the new building next door is filled with 'luxury' $5000/mo rents, which might drive the rent up in their building.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by gorkemyurt on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:43AM (#11775502)
If someone is living in the mission there are only 3 options; 1) They own their house 2) They are renting but their unit is rent controlled 3) They are rich or have high paying jobs (and building more actually helps them)

"Because the actual building they live in gets demolished to build another building"

This happens very rarely, people will literally revolt before a rent controlled unit gets demolished in the mission

So someone opposing more building in the mission falls into the first two categories and they are extremely selfish

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by mikeyouse on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:51AM (#11775834)
This happens all the time (#2), it's literally happening to me right now. Look at the map of Ellis and Owner Move-In evictions in SF. Thousands of people are being displaced.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by gorkemyurt on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:54PM (#11780069)
154 Ellis Act evictions last year. I know its sucks but I wouldn't say it happens all the time

http://sfist.com/2016/03/29/report_evictions_continue_to_inc...

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by mikeyouse on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:14PM (#11780686)
And combined with owner-move in evictions you get to 2 evictions every day. Which some would qualify as 'all the time'.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:57AM (#11775855)
> because the new building next door is filled with 'luxury' $5000/mo rents, which might drive the rent up in their building.

This is such a stupid myth. On par with "vaccinations cause autism" or Bigfoot.

Science has studied how price depends on supply and demand very thoroughly. Increased supply always leads to lower prices.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by timr on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:21AM (#11775962)
"Increased supply always leads to lower prices"

Not in real estate economics. Housing isn't a commodity market. There are firm price tiers, different methods of construction, different fixed costs for those methods, and drastically different markets for individual neighborhoods. Real estate isn't fungible and it's isn't particularly liquid. Basically none of the requirements of Econ-101-style supply and demand are met in the world of real estate. Building skyscrapers is nothing like creating an assembly line for widgets.

So yes, "construction" has some small aggregate effect on the price of a rental in the city, but that effect is meaningless to you if your affordable building was knocked down to make room for a luxury skyscraper.

Moreover, if you do happen to overbuild housing in a market, the price sags. Developers then almost immediately stop building, because the costs of new construction don't decline with scale. Thus, price controls enabled by construction happen on the order of decades, not years. Neighborhoods gentrify much more quickly.

In practice, a low-density neighborhood gentrifies, land values go up, and developers start to replace cheaper, low-density construction with expensive, high-density construction that can only be justified because of the higher land values. Existing residents are displaced. Ideally, those residents then move to a cheaper neighborhood. If no such neighborhood exists (because, say, you're in a small land-locked city with more millionaires per capita than anywhere on earth, and no remaining "undesirable" land), then those residents are, indeed, completely displaced. The fact that luxury apartments are theoretically $30 a month cheaper in some other neighborhood is thin gruel.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:52AM (#11776341)
> Not in real estate economics.

Increased supply leading to higher prices would be something that Economist would crawl over each other to study, if true.

So where are these studies?

Who are the professional economists who support this view?

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by timr on Thursday May 26, 2016 @05:21AM (#11776655)
Pretty much all of them. Nothing I've said is controversial -- the gains are long-term, but the short-term effect is often just displacement:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/12/the-p...

"None of this dismisses the fact that displacement from specific homes happens when low-income housing is literally knocked down to build high-end towers. A good amount of new supply in cities, though, can rise on under-utilized land (former industrial plots, surface parking lots, abandoned properties, etc.). And the cumulative effect of all that new supply can hold down rents across neighborhoods and cities, including for the poor."

Nobody thinks that new housing is bad - in the long term. Where economists start to disagree is how to prioritize low-income housing and market-rate construction in the near-term:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/19/how-t...

"To be sure, more supply is needed, but unless it is targeted to those who need it most, it will only help wealthier residents."

"'Filtering,' where older housing units trickle down to lower-income families as they age, can happen in the broader metropolitan context. But it can take decades for filtering do deliver truly affordable units to lower-income households. As apartments age, the rent of a typical unit – not in a hot area - declines an average of 0.31 percent per year so even after 30 years, the rent will have fallen by only 9 percent."

"In gentrifying neighborhoods, filtering does not work at all, because land values and rents rise as the neighborhoods become more desirable and developers bid up land values. So lower-income households must look in other neighborhoods where services and schools are likely to be much weaker. Hence the gentrification process can reconstruct economic segregation."

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Thursday May 26, 2016 @08:46PM (#11783053)
The first article, headlined The poor are better off when we build more housing for the rich literally makes my argument.

The second article lets various people give their reaction to the first one. The non professionals say what they usually say. But the Berkeley professor of economics answers my question very clearly:

Economic research on this topic is unanimous. There is no question that on net, adding more units tends to lower rents. All existing peer-reviewed academic studies — including work done at Harvard University, the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and by me at UC Berkeley — find that more housing supply results in lower rents and house prices, everything else being constant.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by davidw on Thursday May 26, 2016 @11:38AM (#11778768)
If you're simply replacing cheap housing with an equal number of expensive units, yeah, that's not doing much good. The idea is to add to the total number of units.

Filtering does work, but as you point out, it takes time: https://oregoneconomicanalysis.com/2016/05/25/housing-does-f...

But just because the best time to build more was 30 years ago doesn't mean now isn't a good time to start.

Also: if you are adding expensive housing it takes some pressure off of the cheaper housing that would otherwise be the 2nd choice of those going into the expensive housing.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jacalata on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:31AM (#11776012)
Ok....there is clearly more housing in San Francisco today than there was 50 years ago. Why does housing in San Francisco cost more today than it did 50 years ago?
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by BurningFrog on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:45AM (#11776308)
Because price depends on supply and demand.

Supply has gone up, but demand has gone up even more.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jacalata on Thursday May 26, 2016 @03:51AM (#11776332)
Congratulations on recognising that your glib generalization above was wrong! Now see if you can imagine any way in which development of a neighbourhood can ever increase demand. An idea to get you started: there exist people who would like to live in a nice apartment but who would not be interested in an old rooming house. There exist people who only want to live somewhere that already has residents at their (higher) income level. There exist services that are only offered in areas that have people with x disposable income. And there exist people that will only move somewhere that said services exist.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by youngButEager on Thursday May 26, 2016 @04:15AM (#11776431)
Here a scenario that can illuminate the unavoidable fact of supply and demand.

- A building owner doubles his rents from $3000/month to $6000/month. What happens? Everyone moves out. The high price eliminated Demand for that building.

ANALYSIS: When the owner tried to jack up his rents too high, it created an excess supply of $6000/month units and not enough demand. What will happen to that owner? ANSWER: go out of business or increase Demand by lowering his asking rent. CRUX: owners only have 'pricing power' matching the strength of demand, they cannot just start 'greedily' raising rents.

Now assume Zynga opens up shop in the neighborhood. Does demand increase for apartments? YES. There are hundreds of new renters.

Building owners see they get 20 applications now for a vacancy instead of 5. They raise their asking rents to $3100 and people pay it due to lack of Supply of units.

The owners cannot raise the rent unless Demand increases. But in San Francisco, which has become much more of a Tech hub over the past 20 years, Demand for apartments has increased. Supply hasn't kept up.

INCREASE IN DEMAND = more applications for a vacant unit = HIGHER RENT because lack of supply means renters have few choices.

Okay, now assume Zynga goes out of business.

Does demand DEcrease for apartments in the neighborhood? YES. There are hundreds of fewer renters.

Building owners see they get 5 applications now for a vacancy instead of 20. If they keep the rents at $3100 there is now an excess supply of expensive units. They must lower their asking rents or wait longer to fill a vacancy and lose money on an unrented unit.

I own/operate rental properties. Supply and Demand is alive and well in the apartments realm on the Peninsula.

During the worst parts of the recsssion we had 20% vacancy (normally it's between 3% to 5%).

Demand for apartments dropped precipitously. Did we lower our rents? We had to. We entered a 'race to the bottom' competition with other rental property owners.

THERE WAS AN EXCESS SUPPLY OF APARTMENTS in the 2008-09 recession. Rents dropped.

Right now there is a lack of supply of units because Demand rose as the job market got healthy.

Rents are higher.

When Demand drops in the next few years in the next recession (due to layoffs, tech firms folding, etc.), will my firm have to lower our asking rents?

OH BABY. Yes indeed. It hurts too.

The argument 'Supply and Demand don't apply to housing' is patently false.

During a recession, there's lower Demand for units (fewer people working; living in parent's basement or leave the area). RENTS DROP.

During a healthy job market, there's higher demand for apartments (more people working -- move out of parent's basement; and new people get hired locally and move to the area). RENTS INCREASE.

The argument that 'everyone must have an apartment in San Francisco, regardless, if they want one' is BOGUS. If you cannot afford to live there, that's YOUR FAULT. Not the city's fault. Not Zynga's fault. YOUR FAULT.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by DrScump on Thursday May 26, 2016 @06:40PM (#11782258)
Perhaps Zynga is not an optimal example here.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by eevilspock on Thursday May 26, 2016 @12:26AM (#11775416)
> Around 65% of the population in SF are renters.

We don't in practice have "1 person, 1 vote". Because of the influence of money in politics, the effective reality is somewhere in between "1 person, 1 vote" and "1 dollar, 1 vote". There are far more dollars on the property owning side.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:38PM (#11775206)
> Around 65% of the population in SF are renters. If it were simply homeowners vs renters, renters would win in a landslide.

Yes, but many renters are covered by rent control, and thus immune to increasing market rents.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by davmre on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:28PM (#11774581)
You've described why it's almost impossible to do anything about housing policy at the local level. That's why state-level action such as this bill is so important. The state legislature represents a much broader constituency, including lots of people who would like to live in SF but can't currently afford to.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by natrius on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:16PM (#11774505)
This is exactly what is happening. Those who own homes don't care what the consequences of preventing new housing nearby are. The consequence is income segregation, especially in areas zoned for single family homes. Single family zoning is inherently segregationist—you can only live in those neighborhoods if you can afford the most expensive type of housing. Our homeowner-run local governments feign concern about housing costs while it's literally illegal to build cheaper homes on less land in so many neighborhoods.

To repeal segregation laws that are supported by the public, you're going to need a desegregation movement. Here's one: https://www.facebook.com/DesegregateATX/

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by MicroBerto on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:07PM (#11774731)
This is a big argument going on in Austin too. Housing prices are going through the roof, yet home owners don't want multi family units in their neighborhood.

I can't say I blame them, either. It's nice having some quiet - four families in the lot next door means 4x more noise, cars, dogs, parties, etc.

Difference here is that you can live insanely cheap in the suburbs, so most end up doing that, but with no reasonable public transport and no current ridesharing, it's a mess that will continue to grow.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by natrius on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:34PM (#11775188)
"Just move to the suburbs" is a solution that sounds fine, but it's really not. Wealthier folks feel entitled to central living because a market economy distributes scarce goods to the wealthiest. But the middle class is perfectly capable of outbidding the rich for housing: they do it by buying cheaper homes on less land. Four middle class families in a fourplex spend more on housing than most Central Austin families, but those are illegal to build. Every single family homeowner got a leg up in the housing market because it was illegal for the middle class to bid against them.

Our affordability crisis is a charade. It was manufactured by selfish people looking out for their own interests without caring about the consequences. They have segregated our cities by income, and pushed people away from jobs and communities that would've improved their lives. Our cities must be desegregated. This injustice must end.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by imgabe on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:18PM (#11774515)
Would it really affect homeowners outside major cities that much? Nobody is going to rush out to the middle of nowhere to build apartment buildings.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by rconti on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:27PM (#11774575)
I'm a lowly wage slave homeowner, but I support this.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by realkitkat on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:27PM (#11774842)
Ditto. If only we could next rationalize and overhaul our property tax system / prop-13[1] of 1978. Then we might have a fighting chance of [ more ] affordable housing.

Maybe instead of paying linear tax based on purchase price, we could implement a reverse logarithmic scale for property tax % based on state / national / something average sales prices / sqft that would be re-assessed yearly. And then either apply that to all new home purchases, and when enacted, allow existing home owners to opt-in ( recent buyers ), or opt-out.

[1] http://www.californiataxdata.com/pdf/Prop13.pdf

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by outericky on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:56PM (#11774998)
There is a third group - landlords. Those are the ones that have the means to scoop up multiple properties and collect the rents. I believe this to be the main problem in the build more housing plan...
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by jvm on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:51PM (#11774661)
> First group don't want new houses and dilute value of their property

Increasing as-of-right development opportunities can potentially actually increase land values. Definitely bad for condo owners though.

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by sampo on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:59PM (#11774695)
> Definitely bad for condo owners though.

Why? I would assume, as the area gets denser, more popular, more shops, more restaurants, that also condos go up in price?

Re:Housing in the Bay Area by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:04PM (#11774714)
It increases land values, but more new development decreases the value of older improvements on land.
Re:Housing in the Bay Area by TelAviv_1 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:25PM (#11774562)
I own a house in Silicon Valley. And I'm all for building more.