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Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by peteretep on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:06PM (#11677080)
Hi, I'm a recruiter.

Look for job aggregators like Adzuna, Indeed, etc, which scrape all jobs on the web. When you see results, it should be easy to work out which jobs are posted by recruiters, and which have been posted directly by the company.

In my (massively biased) experience, you are better off applying for a position when you've been put forward by a recruiter:

* The recruiter knows what the client's salary range is, and wants you to get paid as much as possible (as the role is commission based) - they'll be able to make sure you're getting a good deal out of the client

* The recruiter is a professional sales person, and will chase the hiring manager for feedback, technical interviews, etc etc, in a way that as a direct candidate you'll come across as too pushy if you do yourself

* The recruiter will genuinely have a good view of other similar jobs you may not have found that you'd be a good match for.

* The recruiter will get much much more candid feedback about you than you'll ever get directly from the client

... and a whole bunch of other factors.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by throwthisawayt on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:27PM (#11677264)
I have to respectfully disagree. While this may be true for top recruiters, the SNR is very low in this field - a large majority of recruited are not helpful. Specifically I'm speaking on the hiring side of two companies. In one, we had decided to work with one recruiter who we had a good relationship with and they knew our salary requirements, needs etc. However, on a weekly basis we would get 10-12 unsolicited emails from recruiters who we didn't want to work with introducing candidates.

So from a candidates pov, it's very hard to see if the recruiter even has a relationship with the companies they are passing to. If you have a way to ascertain a good recruiter from a bad (maybe through personal recommendations) then sure go ahead. But I don't think it's useful to use cold call emails.

As another datapoint, I've had several friends go through the job hunt where we each applied to 20+ companies. All of us independently stopped using recruiters when we saw that it was more efficient to work directly with companies.

This is my experience as a junior dev. Ymmv with other roles but I find that the SNR is too low to get any benefit from recruiters.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by gorbachev on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:09PM (#11677732)
It's pretty easy to filter out the bad recruiters (I call them keyword monkeys), though.

I have about half a dozen recruiters I trust. All of them contacted me with a cold call email after finding me in LinkedIn or elsewhere.

Yes, the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty bad, but you can essentially pattern match the good from the bad really easily based on the emails they're sending out. The bad ones look like templated emails. The good ones send personal emails clearly not sent to anyone else.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by ohitsdom on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:24PM (#11677235)
> wants you to get paid as much as possible (as the role is commission based)

I think recruiters can be great, but don't put too much stock into this point. Recruiters are similar to realtors- yes, they get more if you get more, but they would rather close the deal then to risk no deal at all over a few more thousand dollars.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by Chris2048 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:15PM (#11678326)
Also, their relationship with the client (employer) is also important. If they can whittle down how much a client (employee/contractor) is willing to get, they will be who the employer calls first next time.

Also, if they know the budget, they may know how small it is too. If they are no other jobs, they may try to convince you to take whatever's in their book.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by peteretep on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:26PM (#11677255)
Sure but they're also aware that the whole deal can disappear if you get a good counter-offer or a better offer elsewhere.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by brianwawok on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:25PM (#11677245)
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by collyw on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:32PM (#11677332)
In my experience, disclosing my salary to recruiter has only ever had a negative effect.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by chadgeidel on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:40PM (#11678003)
I would recommend never disclosing salary because the recruiter will always say "oh, you can't possibly expect to make x% more than your current salary" and negotiate from there.

When asked, I always say "I am looking for between $Y and $Z" to set the tone. If they continue pushing for my current salary I end the conversation.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by vonmoltke on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:06PM (#11678237)
> I would recommend never disclosing salary because the recruiter will always say "oh, you can't possibly expect to make x% more than your current salary" and negotiate from there.

To which you respond, "Then I guess we won't be working together". If he really cares about your business, he'll come around. If not, then it really doesn't matter either way because your likelihood of getting what you would ask for otherwise is slim.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by rdrey on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:20PM (#11678388)
I don't mind disclosing my current salary but wouldn't accept any job that's not a 15-20% increase. (Not worth the disruption.)
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by rebelde on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:29PM (#11677890)
You tell them your real salary? I always gave them a number that was closer to my target range.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by DanBC on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:30PM (#11677904)
That's potentially fraud.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by Chris2048 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:17PM (#11678342)
If that counts as fraud, recruiters are in far greater danger...
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by 15155 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:51PM (#11678107)
In what way? Who is harmed? In which jurisdiction?
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by jeff_tyrrill on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:20PM (#11678380)
Your salary involves two parties, and you are only one of them. The other party is your employer. By stating an untrue salary, you're fraudulently claiming that your current or previous employer (usually known to your negotiating counterparty) agreed to pay you the stated amount.

It's somewhat like lying about a credential.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by artmageddon on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:32PM (#11678494)
Why is the business of the new employer to know how much I was making at my previous position? If they would agree to pay me for my skillset alone, that'd be one thing, but otherwise they'll simply use the information from my previous position to give me a de facto raise. Two can play at that game.

Also, I could be wrong but I don't think a new employer will contact a previous employer to specifically learn how much a particular individual was earning.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by jeff_tyrrill on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @09:02PM (#11680618)
> Why is the business of the new employer to know how much I was making at my previous position?

This isn't the question that I answered. It was asked how stating a specific, untrue salary might be fraud.

Refusing to answer and giving an untrue number are different.

> Also, I could be wrong but I don't think a new employer will contact a previous employer to specifically learn how much a particular individual was earning.

Lying doesn't mean you'll get caught.

Also, be careful. For example, during a background check for one my jobs (a rather "ordinary" one), they said they couldn't verify one of my previous employers, and asked if I could send them proof. I sent W2s for both years I was employed and my offer letter, which satisfied them. Maybe some would feel that's too remote a risk to worry about, but it's not out of the question.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by DanBC on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @04:40PM (#11679060)
If it's not their business you should just not tell them, but instead tell them what you're looking for.

But don't lie to them, especially if they're going to pay you more because of that lie.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by gorbachev on Thursday May 12, 2016 @10:56AM (#11683829)
There is no legal obligation for you to be truthful when asked that question. You're not entering into a contract of any kind at that point.

The salary negotiation is a completely separate event.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by DanBC on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @04:38PM (#11679045)
The recruitee is deceiving someone to gain financial advantage, which is pretty much the definition of fraud.

If the potential recruitee said "I'm looking for $X" they're not deceiving anyone.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by artmageddon on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @05:48PM (#11679612)
I've been in situations where, despite telling them what I'm looking for, they've pressed me to disclose my salary. I've always been honest about it, but I can recall one specific instance where I disclosed my salary to a recruiter and told them that I was seeking a particular salary, only to be told, "No one is going to give you that big of an increase." Who said anything about an increase? It's about paying what I'm worth.

I've seen how a hiring company might look at a person who wants $X, but earns lower-paying figure and think, "Well, market pay is $X, but if the company before was paying them $X-20%, we can get away with offering $X-15% or $X-10% because it's a marginal increase for the applicant and we still save money."

evilduck, below: nails it with this[0]:

"companies aren't going to tell your their actual upper bounds for what they'll pay in salary, why should you tell them your actual lower bounds? "

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11678634

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by DanBC on Thursday May 12, 2016 @07:06AM (#11682574)
I agree it sucks, and that the candidate is in a bad position.

I'm just saying that lying about your previous salary in order to get a higher starting salary is pretty clearly fraud. While it's unlikely to ever be prosecuted it is probably grounds, as has already been said, to withdraw the offer or to fire someone.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by rebelde on Thursday May 12, 2016 @10:45AM (#11683759)
I was new to the industry and the recruiters would get me offers for 3-5k more than my extremely low starting salary. The only way to make it work was to tell them that I was paid better at my job. Then they would give me opportunities in the right range. When speaking with a potential employer, I would always be honest (if asked). That is a different relationship.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by jchendy on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @04:36PM (#11679025)
I don't know about fraud, but if it comes up in the background check, they could definitely rescind your offer.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by jghn on Thursday May 12, 2016 @12:28AM (#11681323)
I know someone who had this happen to them.

It's total BS that a potential employer would base their offer on your current salary, but at the same time lying about what you currently make is dangerous

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by joelg236 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:03PM (#11678217)
Woah woah woah. Why? Who governs that?
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by antisthenes on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:47PM (#11678066)
Not being paid as much as you deserve is actual fraud, though.
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by peteretep on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:36PM (#11677388)
What's the negative effect it's had?
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by evilduck on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:49PM (#11678634)
Anchoring effect. You're showing your hand in poker before placing bets. You'll never get a substantive increase in pay since the recruiter knows what you're currently willing to work for and that some small percent increase is still a win for you. Big jumps also usually means moving out of the range of jobs you're a "safe" fill for and that makes them view it as a higher risk of not getting paid for the effort trying to place you.

If you're not well networked and you're not enough of a rockstar to have companies approaching you out of the blue, your best bet is to control where that salary anchor is placed. There's hardly any way to verify your claim and you're almost always better off placing it at a believably higher position. I mean, companies aren't going to tell your their actual upper bounds for what they'll pay in salary, why should you tell them your actual lower bounds?

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by collyw on Thursday May 12, 2016 @02:59AM (#11681842)
Whenever I have done that they have offered very little (or even the same) salary as I am on.

One time I was contacted about a role in London offering between 65k and 90k (can't remember exactly, but a range along those lines). I said I would only consider moving for the 90K end. He asked what I was on. I refused to tell him then eventually got wore down and told him my relatively small Spanish salary. He refused to put me through for that saying that it was not usual to get more than 10% more than what I am on.

The company was willing to pay more for "the right candidate", but my salary at the time meant I wasn't that candidate.

Don't disclose your salary to recruiters.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by SinomaSo on Thursday May 12, 2016 @04:30AM (#11682114)
This is especially true for London recruiters. I had this happening to me too. Recruiter said "oh you should only ask for 15% top, I don't think we can consider you for the job".

Stay away from those recruiters and never negotiate your salary with recruiters.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by minionslave on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:00PM (#11677642)
Thanks for your reply. Since you're a recruiter, do you have any tips that would help me differentiate between a competent recruiter versus a shady/ incompetent recruiter?

I have worked with a great recruiter in the past, but lately I've been turned off by the whole process, I talked to one the other day and he said "Do you have any MVC experience? MVC is a big technology these days, you didn't list that on your resume ".

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by peteretep on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:12PM (#11677757)
You know, the best ones aren't always the most technical ones (and I say that as someone with many many years development experience) - I would ask your friends and community for recommendations, rather than trying to figure it out yourself.

I would also look for ones who are investing heavily in one community. Someone who does exclusively Python in London, sponsors all the conferences, and has done for a while is likely to know which places are nice to work at, where pays well comparatively, and so on.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by beachstartup on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:08PM (#11677716)
trust your gut. they're sales people, not technical people, so judge them by the appropriate metrics. i.e.:

are they putting you in front of the right companies? are they asking you questions about your needs? are they pitching you on the job (it should be worthy of a pitch), as well as vice versa? are they working with the right hiring budget?

these are the basic questions you use to judge the quality of a sales person. they have to "get it" on a relationship level, not a technical level.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by bitwize on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @04:46PM (#11679107)
When you see results, it should be easy to work out which jobs are posted by recruiters, and which have been posted directly by the company.

Why should I do this myself?

I hate sausage on pizza. If I order a pepperoni and mushroom slice, I'm gonna get mad if the guy gives me back a pepperoni, mushroom, and sausage slice and tells me "it should be easy to pick out the sausages if you don't like 'em".

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by peteretep on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @06:11PM (#11679776)
So, uh, what's your solution to be able to find lots of company-advertised jobs again?
Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by bitwize on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @09:43PM (#11680778)
Job boards that enforce rules against recruit spam.

Near as I can tell, AngelList does this, for example.

Re:Ask HN: Do I have to go through recruiters nowadays, how ... by giaour on Thursday May 12, 2016 @01:57AM (#11681608)
> * The recruiter will get much much more candid feedback about you than you'll ever get directly from the client

This is why I really appreciated going through recruiters early in my career. Companies will never give feedback directly to candidates, but for some reason they feel perfectly comfortable passing it along when there's a recruiter acting as a middleman.