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Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @05:42AM (#11578936)
"They've seen first-hand the folly of chasing America and Europe on their imperialist fancies."

Interesting view on history.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by nihonde on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @06:30AM (#11579187)
Well, it was intended as an "aside" comment, but it's still interesting, if controversial. I believe that there is an unbroken thread from the arrival of American ships in Tokyo bay in 1853 to the current day. If you look at the official US history of that event (it's here: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/opening-to-ja...), it is characterized as a great opening of Japan to the world. In fact, it was in the pursuit of an arrogant imperialist notion of "Manifest Destiny" that Commodore Perry humiliated the Japanese and scared them into thinking that they needed to get into the expansion and conquest game in order to survive. It was a clear message from the Americans: we're coming in whether you like it or not.

Some call it a wake up call; others call it a provocation. Reasonable men and women can disagree about it. There's no doubt that it directly led to the lowest and highest points of Japanese civilization in the 20th century, though.

I think if people looked into the context of events with more curiosity, we would ultimately all benefit from the inquiry.

(And yes, I do believe that America and much of Europe are still pursuing an imperialist agenda. Call me crazy, if you want.)

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by _Codemonkeyism on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @08:05AM (#11579607)
Following this line of thought I would assume America is chasing Europe on their imperialist fancy, Europe (modern) those of the British, the British chasing Romes fancies, Rome those of the Greeks, the Greeks those of the Egyptians (and Persians?) and the Egyptians those of Sumer. This probably goes on though noone left writings before the Sumerians (but my knowledge is fague here).

I would also assume the invasions e.g. of Korea by Japanese before 1853 where not imperialist by intention.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by nihonde on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @08:25AM (#11579734)
Great point about Toyotomi Hideyoshi's attempt to conquer Korean and China! I guess the legacy of the Edo period was a kind of reset on that ambition, because the country was closed and not looking for a fight. I would say it was actually the failure of the shogunate to stand up to Commodore Perry that ended Edo and kicked off the outward-looking Meiji.

I'm no expert in this area, but I enjoy learning about it.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by jazzyk on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @09:58AM (#11580458)
What about the post-Meiji period?

The attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 was just a misunderstood act of extending an olive branch?

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by nihonde on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @10:24AM (#11580670)
(Again my views only.) I think it was a direct reaction to the aggression of 1853. It was preceded by posturing/maneuvering in the South Pacific if I'm not mistaken. To be clear, I don't think it was justified or proportionate, but I do think those events were closely linked in that Japan saw Americans as encroaching on their sovereignty and an imminent threat from the "East".
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by SEJeff on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @10:43AM (#11580823)
Much like the Norsemen were misunderstood by the Celts/Gaels in Ireland (whom they slaughtered)
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by pessimizer on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @09:42AM (#11580325)
In the cases of America and the British, and Rome and the Greeks, this was explicitly true.

As for Europe, it's not a country and doesn't move as a unit. Different European countries were pioneers in imperialism, others were latecomers, others were mostly shut out and ended up doing more desperate, brutal invasions in less appealing places.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by nihonde on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @10:27AM (#11580689)
There were so many peaks and valleys of European empires, it's easy to lump them into one. You're right, though——it's not fair to conflate Rome with Byzantium, Hapsburghs, Belgium, Netherlands, France, etc.
Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by alphonsegaston on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @08:00AM (#11579581)
Although this may be true for a wide swathe of Japanese citizens, the ruling party of Japan has a long history of whitewashing Japan's imperialist past, making this argument tenuous at best. Abe Shinzo's government has been actively dismantling press freedoms to quell anything resembling dissent on this front as well, while his colleagues openly reference the Nazi's rise to power as an exemplar.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-press-freedom-...

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by nihonde on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @10:45AM (#11580835)
It's an interesting problem. I don't like Abe very much, but I respect him. I wonder if most people understand what a powerful coalition he has in the current government? He is one of the most powerful leaders in the history of Japan by that measure. What makes him different is his emphasis on action. He says that he endured many years when the ruling party was hesitant to take action, and he was determined to move the nation in his time. Whether you agree with his direction or not, you have to respect his ability to push the bureaucrats. You can be sure it isn't easy to get them to do anything, and it probably looks a lot like House of Cards, but with 2000 years of subtle, nuanced culture to boot.

Anyway, Abe does nothing more effectively than towing the line for America. In terms of global stability, it's the right play.

As for apologizing, I think it's a stupid issue. Everyone who was involved in Japan's imperialist past is dead now. If every country was required to apologize on a regular schedule for its transgressions, we would never get anything done. Will Obama apologize when he visits Hiroshima this year? I don't expect him to, and I don't care if he does.

I think it's nice that he will visit, and that the leaders of the world will convene near Ise shrine, which is one of the most exceptional treasures that mankind has used its considerable skills to accomplish and preserve.

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by alphonsegaston on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @12:11PM (#11581724)
Action in and of itself is not a virtue, especially when many of his iniatives take square aim at dismantling democratic freedoms. This is akin to the fetishization of "speed" by Italian futurists that paved the way for fascism's rise in Italy. And his coalition has long-standing ties to the yakuza and the CIA, so I guess it is "powerful" to the extent that it's aligned itself with malevolent actors whom his opponents would rather not consort with out of baseline morality. Again, I see nothing worthy of respect here or with the other corrupt regimes backed up with similar means.

Everyone involved with Japan's imperialist past may be dead, but some of its victims are not - for example surviving comfort women in Korea. Abe has on many occasions pandered to the extreme right by denying that anything was perpetrated against these people. I can't imagine being a victim of state-sponsored rape and having your experience further denied everytime a prime minister needs to curry favor. But I guess if "stuff needs to get done," that's just the cost of doing business.

http://www.japansubculture.com/how-the-cia-helped-put-the-ya...

Re:Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations by fit2rule on Wednesday April 27, 2016 @05:53AM (#11578993)
I'd see it more as a comment on the here and now. History is one thing. The wanton destruction of other nation states at the present time, another thing entirely.