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Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:14PM (#11550704)
As Elon would suggest, let's take this down to first principles. In some ways, Germany, with its focus on carbon emissions and clean power is a great market for EVs. There is a big obstacle, however. Air resistance at highway speeds is proportional to the square of the velocity. Kinetic energy is also proportional to the square of the velocity. What this means, is that there is a bigger physics barrier to making an acceptable Li-ion battery EV to run long distances on the Autobahn. Battery tech is going to reach "awesome" levels for the US a lot sooner than it will reach "awesome" levels for Autobahn-stormers.

(In fact, you could probably work out the approximate timing of this occurring using graphs of industry-wide improvements in Li-ion batteries and extrapolating when it will reach 4x today's capacity/weight and capacity/cost as a back of the envelope calc.)

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by jonah on Friday April 22, 2016 @02:04PM (#11551135)
Two things in favor of EVs for the autobahn:

1) They generally have lower drag numbers than gas cars.

2) Diastances in Germany are less than in the US, so you're probably not going to bomb along for as long of a time.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by eveningcoffee on Saturday April 23, 2016 @12:37AM (#11554179)
The number I have heard is that Germans drive on average 50000 km per year.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by Tobias42 on Saturday April 23, 2016 @04:32AM (#11554717)
50000 is definitely much too high. The number I have in my head is 15000. Maybe you confused the two.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by eveningcoffee on Saturday April 23, 2016 @11:03AM (#11555813)
http://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.44461....

Yes, 15000 looks about right. That being said, it feels quite low.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by jackcn on Saturday April 23, 2016 @08:34PM (#11558036)
Sounds about right. Canadians average around ~25 per year, considering far fewer mass transit links, less density, and greater area of travel.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by arcticfox on Friday April 22, 2016 @02:06PM (#11551156)
Germany is also slightly smaller than Montana and nearly 10x as dense as the US, greatly reducing the relevant distances people regularly need to drive.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by _wo6a on Friday April 22, 2016 @08:13PM (#11553444)
This is not actually that true. Germany is 7x as dense as the US, but Germany is only 5.9x as dense as the contiguous US.

About a third of the contiguous US has almost no people relative to the rest except for a few population centers (Intermountain West and Great Plains). There are several states with population densities higher than Germany, and quite a few within a factor of three, and naturally those will tend to have more people than the others.

So I'm not sure the median surrounding population density for an individual in the US would be that much different from Germany -- I'd think cultural factors, including public transportation availability, would have at least as much an effect on average distances driven.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by detaro on Friday April 22, 2016 @08:31PM (#11553493)
I'm not sure how relevant "regularly" is if you want to replace someones only car (multi-car households are a different story, but also a large limitation of the market). Yes, for most people you could cover 90-98% of their days with 100 km range, but nobody wants to rent a car just because they have a 600+ km trip planned. It still needs to be able to do that distance with not too many charging stops.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by frgewut on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:39PM (#11550912)
"Platooning" [1] could decrease air resistance quite a bit and that wouldn't even require a fully autonomous car.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/07/convoy-se...

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by ulfw on Saturday April 23, 2016 @04:58AM (#11554775)
German highway speeds aren't as high as some think, especially not on a continuous stretch. Average speed on not-speed-limited sections I'd peg at around 160km/h, 100mph. When I lived in LA I rarely saw people coast at less than 75-80mph. And the distances in CA are huge!
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Saturday April 23, 2016 @07:17AM (#11555070)
Over a holday, doing the SF->LA drive, you can't expect to be at 75 mph the whole way. 2x speed ratio is about right for real driving scenarios.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by Diederich on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:32PM (#11550858)
I think the basic physics of what you're saying are valid.

But, backing up a bit. What percentage of the German auto market cares little for high-speed performance characteristics? I don't know, but I suspect it's enough to keep the whole formula in the 'worry zone' for German auto makers.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:40PM (#11550916)
My lowly W124 1995 Mercedes 300 was meant as an ordinary family sedan, with just a bit over 150hp. The tradition is that even ordinary cars in Germany be able to hang on the Autobahn.

I'm not saying German carmakers shouldn't worry. I'm saying that they have a bulwark in their domestic market for a little while longer.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by drawnwren on Friday April 22, 2016 @06:22PM (#11552950)
To be fair, a 1995 Honda Accord comes with anywhere from 130 to 170 hp, depending on trim. A Taurus started at 140.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Friday April 22, 2016 @07:27PM (#11553255)
The Honda CRX was famously cited by auto journalist David E. Davis as a minimal car he'd be willing to drive on the Autobahn with. That only had just a bit over 100 hp and could just barely make it past 100mph. My point isn't that German cars are overpowered. My point is that they aren't really, but they're still expected to be able to hang with it on their highway system. If an EV is going to have a sharply reduced uninterrupted highway driving time, then the unavoidable minimum charging stop time of 30 minutes is going to have a proportionately larger impact on travel times there.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by Zigurd on Friday April 22, 2016 @04:05PM (#11552208)
Not everyone in Germany has a 300kph car. Be that as it may, self-driving capability and V2V should do away with speed limits as well as traffic lights. And, as in high-speed rail, I expect crashworthiness to give way to crash-avoidance. So cars will be lighter and sleeker than they are now.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Friday April 22, 2016 @04:41PM (#11552429)
Not everyone in Germany has a 300kph car.

No, but the German expectation is of a 200kph car. So a 4 fold increase in the power consumption over American cars is quite reasonable. (Americans are just a bit north of 100kph on the highway. 100-120)

Higher speed/power consumption over shorter distances/times is actually bad for EVs, because the time spent waiting for recharge vs. driving is proportionately worse.

Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by eveningcoffee on Saturday April 23, 2016 @12:33AM (#11554167)
I would say that about up to 250 km/h car seems to be an expectation based on the manufacturer listed electronically limited maximum speeds for normal German family cars. 2 liter turbo diesel BMW goes up to 240 km/h without any problem, but that is not a common German highway speed, I would put it (based on my limited experience) to around 160, up to 180 km/h.
Re:German automakers who once laughed off Elon Musk are now ... by stcredzero on Saturday April 23, 2016 @12:15PM (#11556131)
If you use 170/110 as a ratio, then you still end up with just over a doubling of current battery capacity as a "crossover" estimate point.