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Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by clarkmoody on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:04PM (#11425057)
Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage.

Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer.

Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by JamilD on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:24PM (#11425267)
It's worth noting that the average age of a minimum wage worker is 35, and the majority are women [0]. Middle-aged women, not teenagers, are the demographic which the minimum wage affects the most.

[0] http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.htm...

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by clarkmoody on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:37PM (#11425388)
I would add that the minimum wage is also reflected in the unemployment rates, for those groups whose labor does not command even that low wage. This[1] BLS page has a granular breakdown of unemployment rate by age, gender, and race. The highest aggregate rate is among the youngest group (16-17 year olds). I would love to see tons of low-skill, low-pay jobs for young people who are looking, but instead we see very high unemployment for those younger ages.

Also alarming is that the unemployment rate for young black men (16-17) is 45% right now.

[1] http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by opo on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @12:39AM (#11427859)
Not sure how they came up with that. Pew Research summarized data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

"People at or below the federal minimum are:

Disproportionately young: 50.4% are ages 16 to 24;

24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).

Mostly (77%) white; nearly half are white women.

Largely part-time workers (64% of the total)."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-mi...

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by pwthornton on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:13PM (#11425719)
Employment of high school kids has been plummeting. This line of thinking you are exposing here has not kept up with the times and is more of a red herring.

The teens most likely to work are not in school, and thus they actually need a living wage.

Youth enrolled in high school had an employment rate of 18 percent. This is down from 36 percent in 1995: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#stha...

And, again, the youth working while in school are more likely to come from lower socio-economic strata. They may in fact need that money.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jeffdavis on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:39PM (#11425914)
Maybe it's been plummeting because of minimum wage or other laws discouraging labor of HS students.

And is that a good thing or something we should try to reverse? Employment has a ramp-up like anything else.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:47PM (#11426702)
Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by mc32 on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @02:11AM (#11428208)
An alternative is to have a two tiered system [as some countries have]. One for teenagers, another for adults, to compensate for lack of experience, or proxy for need.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @01:57PM (#11432733)
I don't trust crappy companies not to abuse the hell out of that system.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jeffdavis on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @03:39AM (#11428585)
A healthy career is a journey that often begins long before you depend on the money. A first job is more than just "gas money".
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @01:57PM (#11432735)
Not a response to my question at all.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by jeffdavis on Tuesday April 05, 2016 @08:06PM (#11435632)
Your question was heavily loaded, and misses the time dimension. Today's unemployed HS student might be tomorrow's un(der)-employed head of household. So don't dismiss it as "gas money".

Trying to create a total order by comparing the two alternatives goes down a bad road. There's always someone in need, but if you try to optimize the entire economy around that one story, you will have a disaster.

Maybe it's best to just have more jobs, period, even with low pay? And then make up for needy cases some other way?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Wednesday April 06, 2016 @04:29PM (#11441797)
"Maybe it's best to just have more jobs, period, even with low pay? And then make up for needy cases some other way?"

Why should that be anyone's responsibility but the company? Why should my tax dollars be used to subsidize some greedy business guy who can't be arsed to pay their employees enough to live on?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by ethanbond on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:40PM (#11425918)
Yeah, not sure why these people seem to think that schools provide shelter, food, electricity and gas to students.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by rskar on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:16PM (#11425168)
Per http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/youthlabor/wages: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires a minimum of not less than $4.25 per hour for employees under 20 years of age during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. After 90 days of employment, or when the worker reaches age 20 (whichever comes first), the worker must receive the minimum wage. Employers are prohibited from taking any action to displace employees in order to hire employees at the youth minimum wage. Also prohibited are partial displacements such as reducing employees hours, wages, or employment benefits.

HTH

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by stevesearer on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:25PM (#11425281)
California: Although there are some exceptions, almost all employees in California must be paid the minimum wage as required by state law. Effective January 1, 2016, the minimum wage in California is $10.00 per hour.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by chadzawistowski on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:28PM (#11425302)
42% of the American workforce makes $15/hr or less. http://fortune.com/2015/04/13/who-makes-15-per-hour/
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by dv_dt on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:31PM (#11425330)
Teenagers don't need to live on this wage, but their parents need to have sufficient margin in their wages to support that.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by clarkmoody on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:39PM (#11425405)
Yes, but the alternative is that the teen sits around all summer causing trouble instead of having a job because the minimum wage is too high.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by wonderlust on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:39PM (#11425911)
Hobbies, friends, summer school, cheap or free youth groups, parent sponsered events...
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:53PM (#11426732)
No, that isn't the alternative. There are thousands of summer programs, most educational in nature, which would be teaching the kid much more useful stuff than how to scoop ice cream.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by falcolas on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:39PM (#11425409)
How about homeless high school kids? Or high school kids with one parent who are helping to supplement their household income?
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by moftz on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:13PM (#11425717)
There are other programs out there to support the homeless and single parents needing financial aid for their kids.

A high school kid making money regardless of his family's wealth is making money as a supplement to what the parents or guardians should already be receiving from the government or otherwise, assuming they aren't emancipated but that is a very special case. If the parents can't afford to meet the basic needs of their child despite how ever much welfare they receive then why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by falcolas on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:54PM (#11426029)
This is, please forgive me, a very idealistic view of single parent families. It's very easy to earn too much money to qualify for welfare (or other government subsidies), while still not making quite enough to support a decent life.

There are frequently waiting lists, restrictions (my favorite is disability, where you are not allowed to work, but are given barely enough money for yourself to live on), and miles of red tape associated with government subsidies. There's also the very real cost to the pride of the entire family associated with these subsidies.

> why should the state allow for a child to remain in that home

Because moving a child is incredibly traumatic for the child and expensive for the state?

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by NDizzle on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:14PM (#11425145)
I'm really interested to see what happens to the price of a season pass to the community swimming pool if/when doubling the minimum wage goes through.
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by VLM on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:06PM (#11425666)
Probably roughly nothing.

I pulled my (small) suburban cities budget which is a many hundred page long PDF and parks and rec runs 40-something neighborhood city playground type parks and 2 pools on 2.3 million total per year. Of which staggeringly only 1.5 mil are wages (we live in a rough climate, maintenance costs are high, over $100K spend on electric bills alone, etc).

On the revenue side the two public pools combined pulled in about 1/3 of a million from fees collected at the door. Its pretty cheap compared to commercial entertainment (movie, restaurant, etc), they could certainly charge more without excluding too many people, given how much it costs to live here.

I know from experience that they have a couple kid lifeguards at each pool all the time so lets say 10 total staff at all instants (LOL no) at $15/hr for 10 or so hours per day (LOL no not open that much), open about 100 days a year (LOL no they'd be ice skating in the spring on the pool if that were the case), if I multiplied this out correctly in my head, at $15/hr, the kid lifeguards cost $150K/yr while bringing in $340K of revenue. Note that I don't have the misfortune of living in CA, so the actual cost of a seasons lifeguards at the two pools is more like $80K.

The cities very gross profit margin if by a miracle pools were free to build and maintain, just revenue divided by kid labor, is roughly $340K/$80K right now and if the min wage were $15 it would "collapse" to $340K/$150K which still ain't bad.

Honestly I suspect the pool spends more on chlorine and electricity than on the kids labor.

The capital cost is no laughing matter. The most recent ADA compliant complete remodel was something like $2M which for that one pool is roughly a decades revenue.

This quick analysis leads to the conclusion that open hours for the pool are insanely profitable, and the "pool biz" is overall dominated by capital costs. The kids pay is irrelevant.

Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by justinhj on Monday April 04, 2016 @08:10PM (#11426807)
I don't expect public pools to be profitable anyway since they are subsidized by city taxes
Re:A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage by st3v3r on Monday April 04, 2016 @07:46PM (#11426696)
"Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?"

Yes. Otherwise why would you hire the someone who actually does need to live on that wage?