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Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by Spooky23 on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @06:36PM (#11385516)
I think the tinder that fuels China "bears" is the pretty obvious capital flight from China to basically any hard asset. In the backwater city where I live, Chinese investment funds are buying mid rise, 80% vacant mid-rise office towers with cash in small cities.

We've seen this movie before... Back in the 80s it was called "Japan". Everyone was making money, Japanese investors were spending billions on real estate, brands, etc. The ending didn't go so well.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by hibikir on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @12:10AM (#11386916)
The difference is that China has a lot more people, yet far lower population density, and a whole lot of people that are still living in borderline medieval conditions. Japan stopped when it became a 1st world country. Chins could spend another three decades in infrastructure and not reach Western levels. So while China's growth might slow down, it won't hit Japan's zero, because it's just way too easy to for them to keep growing.

So there will be bubbles, but I have little doubt that they will have a higher growth rate than the west for quite a long time. Once they become fully industrialized, probably not.

We can tell the same story about India, BTW. The last deca might have been terrible for the EU and the US, but it has been amazing for Asia. It's only not been quite as good for Africa because so many countries the hare horrible governments.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by maxander on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @02:04PM (#11391524)
I Am Not An Economist, but, the problem with infrastructure is that its difficult to know where to put it to generate a reasonable return on investment- predicting whether a new road gets used or a new residential area becomes desirable is more of an art than a science, and if you get it wrong you've essentially thrown money out the window. China has had this issue in spades- witness its infamous "ghost cities"[1]. In the long run, China's infrastructure growth (and therefore, to at least some degree, growth in general) will be limited not by what people are willing to spend on it, but peoples' understanding of the exact shape of what they're building with it.

[1] http://priceonomics.com/surveying-the-ghost-cities-of-china/

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by delecti on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:12PM (#11385728)
When the 80s ended I was 2. What happened when that ended with Japan?

I'm genuinely not being sarcastic, I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to start looking for an answer to that question otherwise.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by krrrh on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:28PM (#11385810)
This is a good start:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)

It's also interesting to review old films and media from the late eighties (Gung Ho, and Die Hard). It's hard to comprehend if you didn't live through it, but there was a massive level of anxiety in the US that Japanese business culture and management prowess was going to be impossible for the US to overcome, and that th US was in decline.

The Asset bubble in Japan was so insane that at one point the nominal value of the Imperial Palace was equal to the value of all property in the state of California. Aother good Wikipedia article to read is this one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_asset_price_bubble

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by ghaff on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:40PM (#11385872)
Also the whole structure and relationships associated with Japanese businesses and the government and like, e.g. MITI [1]. I went to business school in the mid-eighties and I remember any number of articles and visiting lecturers arguing for how the US had to emulate Japanese industrial policy and planning or we were doomed.

Certainly there was also significant attention to some of the more specific processes and practices associated with Japanese manufacturing (and far less to US manufacturing) at the time, which have been largely proven out. (And are arguably being reflected in a lot of modern DevOps software practices.) However, a lot of notable economists and others were also calling for much more systematic cooperation/planning between government and companies (especially manufacturers). Sematech was an example from the semiconductor industry.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_International_Trad...

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by josephlord on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:47PM (#11385900)
It's funny that we call it the lost decade but it is now really a lost quarter century.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by fspeech on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @11:44PM (#11386823)
https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+per+capita+income&oq=j...

From 1990 to 2013 Japan's per capita income actually doubled, translating into over 3% growth per annum.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by josephlord on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @06:23PM (#11393504)
This chart tells a very different story.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/gdp-growth

Japan has been suffering from low inflation and at times deflation. This means that debts do not shrink with inflation. I think the stockmarket and property markets have been pretty flat too over the period. What growth there has been has been assisted by "extraordinary" (well they were before 2008) monetary measures and growth in government debt to 230% of GDP.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by fspeech on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @08:49PM (#11394217)
Japan's working age population peaked in the 80s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan so I don't know why anyone should expect robust aggregate growth, considering that it has been a maturely developed economy for decades.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by emodendroket on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @09:50AM (#11389223)
That money has been pretty unevenly distributed, to say the least.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by fspeech on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @01:09PM (#11390936)
Japan is actually one of the more egalitarian countries in the world as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_...
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by emodendroket on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @05:22PM (#11393121)
Well, I'm not really sure what to make of that, but this is a pretty common claim in both US and Japanese sources; here's an example: http://theweek.com/articles/453219/everything-need-know-abou...

> Why aren't they getting married?

> There are both cultural and economic barriers. In Japanese tradition, marriage was more about duty than romantic love. Arranged marriages were the norm well into the 1970s, and even into the 1990s most marriages were facilitated by "go-betweens," often the grooms' bosses. Left to their own devices, Japanese men aren't sure how to find wives — and many are shying away from the hunt, because they simply can't afford it. Wages have stagnated since the 1990s, while housing prices have shot up. A young Japanese man has good reason to believe that his standard of living would drop immensely if he had to house and support a wife and children — especially considering that his wife likely wouldn't be working.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by fspeech on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @08:27PM (#11394130)
Japan has had deflation so even a stagnating wage translates into a rising standard of living. That said, Japan has a generational gap whereby the younger people face worse challenges, but that is different from what is typically understood as income inequalities.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by emodendroket on Thursday March 31, 2016 @09:16AM (#11396888)
Well, be that as it may, the challenges of young people were what I meant to allude to with the top comment.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by hkmurakami on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @10:19PM (#11386531)
I think we can say that the "lost decade" has extended itself to a "lost 25 years"
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by exwardna on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @04:55AM (#11387898)
If the "lost" decade refers to the sluggish growth of Japan starting beginning of the century, let's not forget that Japanese population growth has been negative for a while. The per capita economic performance of the country is much less lost in that regard.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by hkmurakami on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @10:59AM (#11389741)
fwiw it started in the 90's.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by w1ntermute on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @12:15AM (#11386927)
It'll soon be the lost 3 decades, the way things are going[0].

0: http://blogos.com/article/104198/

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by noir_lord on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:22PM (#11385781)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29 is a good overview.

In the west we have this opinion that an economy should under go the maximum amount of growth at all times and so from that perspective Japan looks like a basket case and yet they have a good standard of living, an excellent life expectancy and by most measures are a successful country.

That said much of what happened in Japan is worth study in the greater world, the suppression of wages and the liquidity trap (their debt is 240% of GDP) have analogues in the western world.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by coliveira on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @10:56PM (#11386653)
> In the west we have this opinion that an economy should under go the maximum amount of growth at all times

The main reason for this belief is that we have a distorted view of economy. For economists, business growth is the only thing that matters in a society. On the other hand, 99% of the people in a country don't really care about economic growth (above some basic comfort level of development, it must be said). This happens because most people live of wages, and wage growth is slow and sometimes non-existent (as presently in the US).

The standard growth oriented view of economy is important only for investors (people making money in the stock market and bond market), and business owners. Normal people will live perfect fine lives as long as the economy is not imploding.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by intrasight on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @11:57PM (#11386866)
Don't blame the economists - it is the Dismal Science after all. Economists just measure and model things. There is now more cross-fertilization with Social Science in trying to measure "intangibles" like happiness. Internet and social media are making it much more scientific to measure such things.

It is politicians and developers who put a value-judgement on growth - specifically GDP growth. And they are perfectly rational in doing so. In most jurisdictions the developers hire the politicians and so they adopt that value-judgement. The other 99.9% of the constituents are largely ignored on this topic.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by emodendroket on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @09:51AM (#11389230)
Japan is also facing a demographic crisis that is probably not helped by the inability of young people to find jobs that would allow them to support a family.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by chvid on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:36PM (#11385858)
I think there are multiple explanations; here are some common ones:

- When a country is completely modernized its growth tends to plateau; no good investments left (in say infrastructure, health, education and so).

- The Japanese Yen got too strong. Japan got stiffed at the plaza accord. After the 2nd world war it took 300 JPY to buy one USD. Today it hovers around 100.

- Japan's skewed demographics. Too many elderly. Too few young. Little immigration.

- Japan's conservatism. I.e big consumer electronics giants unable to transition into software companies.

- Too much debt. Economy caught in a debt deflation / liquidity trap.

- Competition from Taiwan, South Korea, China.

- The big bubble was never allowed to pop and clear. Leaving zombie companies, slowly falling asset prices, bad debt for many decades ...

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by dforrestwilson on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @07:22PM (#11385777)
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by Spooky23 on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @08:19PM (#11386065)
Basically, they crashed and burned. This book and movie captures the paranoia that many Americans felt about Japan at that time.

http://www.amazon.com/Rising-Sun-Michael-Crichton/dp/0099233...

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by shostack on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @10:25PM (#11386553)
What was the outcome on overseas real estate from Japanese investors? Capital flight from China is impacting US real estate prices (particularly in the Bay), so I'm curious what we can learn about possible real estate scenarios over here should China implode.

My current thinking is that capital outflows will increase the worse the situation gets until China cracks down in a major way, or they are tapped dry.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by gozur88 on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @03:19PM (#11392144)
The Japanese bought up US commercial real estate like crazy leading up to 1989. Then they cashed out after the bubble popped. They lost their collective shirt, too, because of the way the timing worked out.
Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by chvid on Tuesday March 29, 2016 @06:58PM (#11385657)
Yes. That is true.

But China is no where near where Japan was in 1990.

You can see that if you compare GDP pr. capita figures.

Re:Investors Are in Denial About China by maaku on Wednesday March 30, 2016 @03:41AM (#11387564)
Not sure why that figure is relevant? Apples to oranges here.