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Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by ricw on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @10:31AM (#11344767)
Main take away: Intel is doing three phases instead of two tick-tocks.

Secondary take away: due to the increased time to move to a better manufacturing process, Intel will likely not have as much a competitive advantage anymore. Though the number of competitors will (and has already) decrease due to the high investments.

Would be interesting to see how long intel estimates the process cycles are going to be, i.e. how Moore's law will progress.

Weird statement in the article: "it (TSCMs 7nm tech) should be very similar in terms of transistor density to Intel's 10-nanometer technology". This makes no sense as it would be comparing apples and pears. Surely they are referring to TSCMs 10nm tech?!

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by matt_d on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @12:36PM (#11345972)
> Weird statement in the article: "it (TSCMs 7nm tech) should be very similar in terms of transistor density to Intel's 10-nanometer technology". This makes no sense as it would be comparing apples and pears. Surely they are referring to TSCMs 10nm tech?!

Process metrics are somewhat of a marketing nature nowadays (and not as directly related to the physical properties of the fabrication process as it may seem--at least not without adjusting for the differences between vendor-specific definitions in use).

Compare TSMC's 10nm to Intel's 14nm:

"In the case of TSMC they follow the “Foundry” node progress whereas Intel follows more of an “IDM” node transition 40nm versus 45nm, 28nm versus 32nm and 20nm versus 22nm. At the 14nm node TSMC has also chosen to call their node 16nm where everyone else is calling it 14nm."

Source: https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/3884-who-will-lead-10...

"Although the nominal gap in process nodes between Intel and TSMC appears to be narrowing, TSMC is not likely to catch up in terms of actual Moore’s Law scaling any time soon. TSMC’s 16FF+ process delivers only 20nm scaling, so they are still a generation behind Intel’s 14nm in terms of actual die area. TSMC said that 10nm shrinks by 0.52x from 16nm, nearly identical to the 0.53x scaling that Intel achieved from 22nm to 14nm. So if they stay on schedule, in 2017 TSMC will be in production on a 10nm process that is equivalent to the 14nm technology that Intel began producing in 2Q15. At that rate, even though Intel has slipped 10nm to 2H17, they will remain at least a year ahead of TSMC."

Source: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327725

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by ISV_Damocles on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @01:31PM (#11346492)
No, there's a very simple definition for these XXnm numbers and a very good reason why they only roughly correlate with transistor density.

These numbers refer to the length of the channel in the MOSFET or FinFET between the Source and Drain dopant regions. The channel is always the smallest feature the fabrication process can create, but how it's created is actually with lots of solid-state physics tricks (such as annealing to cause the dopants to spread out from where they were originally implanted, looking a lot like a physical Gaussian blur), as the original masks used to define the transistor are nowhere near that small.

Depending on how small they can get the mask details (mostly an issue of optics and mask creation, now bounded primarily by the frequency of light they expose to the mask material, though interesting holographic tricks can help if they've left the laboratory phase) you can define the minimum size of the transistors, themselves. But there are other considerations like heat dissipation and the melting points of the various metals you've used that may force the transistors to be larger than what you can theoretically build.

The channel length is still very important because it determines how many Coulombs of charge you need to switch the transistor on, and how long it takes to propagate a signal across the transistor.

It also correlates with how much leakage current the transistor has (smaller = higher) and therefore the standby power consumption, so you do continue to make an engineering trade-off to get lower, which is also why server hardware tends to get the smallest sizes first, as they least care about idle power consumption if they're being utilized correctly.

Everything I've said is about 4 years out of date, when I switched from EE back to Software Engineering for financial reasons (and also my wife is an EE so we didn't want to put all of our financial eggs in one basket), but the semiconductor industry moves so slow, and proof-of-concept fabrication techniques take so long to productionize, that I doubt this is very far off.

The only thing marketing has done here is fight between each other on whether or not channel size is the number to focus on, as it benefits their corporation or not.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by matt_d on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @02:55PM (#11347212)
Thanks for the reply!

> These numbers refer to the length of the channel in the MOSFET or FinFET between the Source and Drain dopant regions. [...] The only thing marketing has done here is fight between each other on whether or not channel size is the number to focus on, as it benefits their corporation or not.

Right -- I believe this is where the variety (or marketing) creeps in.

Here's what I mean: The various "gate length" definitions (printed, physical, effective, etc.) have a direct (and significant) impact on the ambiguity of the meaning of "process nodes" (that's in addition to the half-pitch interpretation in the DRAM industry); cf. Table 1: ITRS 2013 Data for CMOS Technology “Nodes” in http://semiengineering.com/a-node-by-any-other-name/

For reference (for anyone else reading, I know you know this), "channel length" vs. "gate length" is another difference to take into account: http://vlsi-soc.blogspot.com/2015/12/channel-length-vs-gate-... (More formally -- "Sidebar: Gate Length (Lg) versus Channel Length (L) and Experimental Data versus Equations" in http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ee130/sp06/chp7full.pdf)

Given that, I think it's fair to say the result is that this is more of a marketing name than a directly (in terms of physical feature sizes) interpretable number; as in:

- "At the December meeting, for example, Chenming Hu, the coinventor of the FinFET, began by mapping out the near future. Soon, he said, we’ll start to see 14-nm and 16-nm chips emerge (the first, which are expected to come from Intel, are slated to go into production early next year). Then he added a caveat whose casual tone belied its startling implications: “Nobody knows anymore what 16 nm means or what 14 nm means.”"

- "The switch to FinFETs has made the situation even more complex. Bohr points out, for example, that Intel’s 22-nm chips, the current state of the art, have FinFET transistors with gates that are 35 nm long but fins that are just 8 nm wide."

http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/the-status-o...

Related: http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/design/shrinking-pos...

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @02:07PM (#11346798)
> which is also why server hardware tends to get the smallest sizes first, as they least care about idle power consumption if they're being utilized correctly.

That's certainly true for Google or Amazon but not for most real corporate IT departments. It's very common for small offices to need a local server for one reason or another even though the thing will be idle most of the time.

Moving the server into a larger datacenter would require a faster network link to that office which would be both more expensive and slower for local employees than the local server. So every little office gets a server which is mostly idle.

And then you need two of them for redundancy. And then you need four of them because one app touches credit cards and needs to be in the PCI CDE and the other doesn't etc. etc.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by gohrt on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @05:00PM (#11348192)
An office with two machines in it has no concern for power costs, it's nothing compared to their office lighting budget.

Compute cost matters when compute is a substantial part of your budget.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by gozur88 on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @08:16PM (#11349524)
>That's certainly true for Google or Amazon but not for most real corporate IT departments.

I can't speak for all corporate IT departments, but I'm at a very large corporation that certainly cares about idle power consumption. Over the years our servers have gotten more powerful, and more power hungry. It's not that hard to add more power, but adding new cooling isn't so easy. The less power we use overall, the less cooling we have to add, and the happier we are.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by timdierks on Thursday March 24, 2016 @10:19AM (#11352954)
You have the comparison backwards. The claim is that Google and Amazon don't care about idle power consumption, presumably because their homogeneous computing environments lead to relatively little idle time.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by ghaff on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @10:34AM (#11344802)
>Weird statement in the article

At this point, process nodes don't map to a particularly well-defined set of feature sizes across vendors. So what I assume they're saying is that what Intel calls 10nm is actually pretty similar in terms of transistor size/density to what TSMC is calling 7nm. (No idea if that's actually true but it's what I believe is being said.)

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by creshal on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @10:50AM (#11344968)
Yes. Node sizes and actually physical sizes have no correlation anymore. Smaller nodes are smaller, but nowhere near the sizes suggested by names. The already a decade old 45nm process highlights this nicely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_nanometer#Technology_demos Effective sizes are all over the place, and Intel's process in particular is nowhere near 45nm for any relevant dimension. It's similar with more recent technologies (and with 3D transistors, the distance between two arbitrary points becomes even less comparable.)
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by phkahler on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @01:12PM (#11346343)
I've been wondering if EUV will bring things back in line. They say the light sources are not bright enough yet, but isn't doing a 2-4x exposure better than double or triple pattering? If the total time were the same you'd still have the benefit of the shorter wavelength allowing dramatically smaller features. What am I missing?
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by Armisael16 on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @01:43PM (#11346575)
It isn't 25% as bright as it needs to be - it's more like 1% or 0.1%. The total time isn't the same.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by Pietertje on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @06:40PM (#11348854)
That is not true at all, wafer throughput is a factor 4-5 less... The mistake in the first comment is that with self aligned double patterning you only need one litho step, not two. The same applies for SQDP. And since litho is one of the most expensive steps double patterning is more cost effective.

From a technology point of view the problem with EUV is more the line edge roughness, line width roughness, defects and the reliability... Given, more light will make the job easier

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by deelowe on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @10:58AM (#11345044)
> how Moore's law will progress.

I think it's all but confirmed at this point that it's not progressing. What we're witnessing here is it's death.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by ricw on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @11:49AM (#11345507)
It certainly isn't dead. It is slower than it was before. Moore's original law stated that every 12 months the number of transistors would double. That was revised to 18 month in the 90s, and is now due another update.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by deelowe on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @04:53PM (#11348130)
I guess we can agree to disagree on that one. Every trend we look into, we see signs of it's death from memory prices to Intel's struggles on recent chips.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by emcq on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @05:15PM (#11348311)
Furthermore it's not a useful trend anymore if it's due for an update. What would that new constant be that people feel confident will hold over the next 10 years? Seems like quite the Frankenstein "law" to be hacking piecewise functions together.

If it's not dead, it's certainly dying. Perpetual exponential growth is irrational given finite resources.

Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by ant6n on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @05:23PM (#11348380)
Well, unless the factor is smaller than 1.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by samfisher83 on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @10:59AM (#11345059)
Another reason might be they have no AMD pushing them. They are hitting physical physics barriers, but the fact they have no real competitors makes them have less incentive to push the envelope.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by skylan_q on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @11:19AM (#11345249)
It's possible, but the usual pattern is that Intel is slightly price-competitive with AMD when the CPUs are in the same range of performance, and then Intel's prices just rocket upward after that. There's no reason to not come out with an $8,000 desktop CPU if they can get more performance.
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by maaku on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @12:05PM (#11345677)
TSMC?
Re:Intel Kills “Tick-Tock” by TTPrograms on Wednesday March 23, 2016 @12:28PM (#11345899)
I'm also willing to give the benefit of the doubt in that given how sophisticated processors have become they realized that for important use cases they can improve performance pretty significantly with primarily microcode tweaks and slight architecture changes. If that's the case then may as well do that and take more time / less cost refining the processes and architectures for the next node.

I'm mostly speculating, though.