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Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by ori_b on Friday March 18, 2016 @12:48AM (#11309980)
So. Time to move to ECC by default?
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by SixSigma on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:03AM (#11310018)
from TFA

The researchers were also able to flip the bits inside DDR3 DIMMs installed on an enterprise-grade server. The tests succeeded even though all of the DDR3 modules included a protection known as ECC, the servers completely locked up or spontaneously rebooted, usually within three minutes of the tests commencing.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by ori_b on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:11AM (#11310043)
Yes; Locking up or rebooting seems like a reasonable thing to do if the memory has multiple unrecoverable errors. It certainly beats silent corruption.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by roywiggins on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:29AM (#11310095)
But the failure mode for ECC is silent corruption, followed (maybe) by a crash, right? ECC can detect and correct one or two (or a few more?) bit-flips at a time, but if there's too many it won't notice that something's gone wrong.

The system then goes merrily along and either crashes (because you've flipped some bits at random) or recovers (because those bits weren't important) or hands the attacker root (because you've managed to flip some particular target bits).

So if the computer crashes or locks up, you can probably conclude that you've defeated the ECC and flipped some bits, and the system is vulnerable to Rowhammer. It's (maybe) just a matter of time before someone engineers a way to flip the specific bits needed to hand the attacker root.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by GauntletWizard on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:40AM (#11310130)
The memory can recover one, detect two, and will throw up loud warning bells to any competent admin as long as it is doing so. If you see a sudden spike of ECC errors from a server, the memory is probably bad, and you replace it. If you see a sudden spike of ECC errors from a large number of servers, something is seriously wrong, and you investigate - I'd be more likely to blame it on bad power myself, or a EM Field/radiation source.

Even when trying to trigger rowhammer, the graph of bit flips is going to look like a logarithmic curve - Single-bit flips will be common, two-bits will be rare, and undetected flips will be real but ultimately not much to talk about compared to the discovered flips. You know they're there by the unrecoverable rate, and you replace the ram, discard any replicated data on that machine, and move on.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by nkurz on Friday March 18, 2016 @02:27AM (#11310269)
The memory can recover one, detect two, and will throw up loud warning bells to any competent admin as long as it is doing so.

I don't have personal experience here, but one of the important claims in the paper is that this warning is not given on all servers:

  Unfortunately, server vendors routinely use a technique   
  called ECC threshold or the 'leaky bucket' algorithm where 
  they count ECC errors for a period of time and report them 
  only if they reach certain levels of failure. From what we 
  understand, this threshold is commonly above 100 per hour, 
  but this remains a trade secret and varies based on the 
  server vendor. So, to see ECC errors (MCE in Linux or
  WHEA in Windows), there generally needs to be 100 bit flips 
  per hour or greater. This makes “seeing” Rowhammer on 
  server error logs more difficult.

  In addition, we have observed some server vendors will 
  NEVER report ECC events back to the OS,although they might 
  get logged into IPMI. Typically, users expect to see 
  correctable ECC errors logged directly to the OS or that 
  halt the system when they cannot be corrected. During our 
  investigation into this phenomenon, we even encountered one 
  server that neither reported ECC events to the OS nor
  halted when bit flips were not correctable. The end result 
  was data corruption at the application level.
  This is something, in our opinion, that should never happen 
  on an ECC protected server system.
http://www.thirdio.com/rowhammer.pdf
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by baruch on Friday March 18, 2016 @03:02AM (#11310347)
On the servers that I use the server will log to ipmi sel only after a threshold but the Linux OS will get an MCE for each error so a monitoring tool can detect and alert even before the BIOS logs anything.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by BuildTheRobots on Friday March 18, 2016 @08:12AM (#11311216)
I really wish they'd have expanded on that somewhere and actually stated what manufacturers/models of server they tested and which ones don't report ECC errors.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by brainfire on Saturday March 19, 2016 @09:27AM (#11318419)
Really, without details like that it's just unverifiable FUD.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by snuxoll on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:40AM (#11310132)
To be fair, the expected failure mode of unrecoverable memory corruption in kernel space should probably be a panic followed by a reboot. Unfortunately, as you said, if you manage to corrupt more than two bits in a row it's a crapshoot if ECC DRAM will even detect the corruption or not.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by cesarb on Friday March 18, 2016 @07:48AM (#11311112)
> ECC can detect and correct one or two (or a few more?) bit-flips at a time, but if there's too many it won't notice that something's gone wrong.

ECC can normally detect and correct a single bit flip, and detect but not correct a double bit flip, in the "line" of bits protected by it. The ECC protection is local, not global; if there are many flipped bits but they are far enough from each other, each "line" will only have a correctable single-bit flip.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by greglindahl on Friday March 18, 2016 @01:17AM (#11310059)
ECC just makes the attack take longer.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by tdullien on Friday March 18, 2016 @02:19AM (#11310240)
Co-author of the original exploit writing here. ECC doesn't "make the attack take longer", it turns it from an exploitable security issue into a denial-of-service issue (as odds are the ECC will detect the bitflip and the kernel will shut down the box).
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by greglindahl on Friday March 18, 2016 @03:19AM (#11310380)
Then why's the paper[1] say different? The odds of a double-flip are smaller than s single-flip; a single flip gets corrected, a double stops the box (depending on the bios etc), an even rarer triple may not get detected... the odds are exactly why it just takes longer. This paper reports observing it happening.

1: http://www.thirdio.com/rowhammer.pdf

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by nkurz on Friday March 18, 2016 @04:21AM (#11310538)
I presume 'tdullien' assumes that "attack" refers to privilege escalation. I think he's claiming you are unlikely to get an undetected and exploitable triple bit flip before you crash the machine with the more single and double bit flips. Thus he says that ECC "turns it from an exploitable security issue into a denial-of-service issue".

Does the paper claim that in fact triple bit flips are sufficiently more frequent than one would expect, and thus an exploitable security issue still exists with ECC? This would be interesting news. But if you are defining "attack" to include denial-of-service by crashing the machine, I presume the disagreement is only about terminology.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by nickpsecurity on Friday March 18, 2016 @02:23AM (#11310254)
I noticed supercomputer vendors and Oracle are using ChipKill plus ECC. Does adding that change the results any or still reduce to DOS?
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by tdullien on Friday March 18, 2016 @02:46AM (#11310315)
So I do not know (in the mathematical sense) that ChipKill won't create a problem, but I think it is unlikely.

In general, if the ECC infrastructure works (e.g. DRAM detecting bit corruption and reporting it to the OS), the odds of an attacker finding a piece of RAM that flips bits "just right" to bypass the checksumming without triggering a OS panic are low enough that I'd rather worry about software bugs.

DoS may still be a pretty viable attack, though.

Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by darkr on Friday March 18, 2016 @06:17AM (#11310831)
Not just supercomputer vendors - Chipkill has been a standard option on IBM X-Series (their standard server range) for years now. I remember deploying a whole bunch of servers back 2011 or so that had it.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by baruch on Friday March 18, 2016 @02:58AM (#11310338)
It can mitigate the DoS if you have enough spare RAM. if you are right on the edge that removed RAM will turn into an OOM condition and will become a DoS.
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by nickpsecurity on Friday March 18, 2016 @12:54PM (#11313063)
Appreciate everyone's insightful replies. :)
Re:Once thought safe, DDR4 memory shown to be vulnerable to ... by rodgerd on Friday March 18, 2016 @05:02AM (#11310636)
That could still be extraordinarily entertaining for an attacker to execute on a shared hosting environment, though.