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Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by cantrevealname on Friday March 11, 2016 @04:05PM (#11269516)
The premise of the crypto wars are that we don't really have a right to encryption.

Shouldn't we stop pussyfooting around this issue and instead demand that encryption is a fundamental right just as freedom of speech is a fundamental right?

Since everything we say and do today involves computers and the Internet, we can't have free speech, privacy, liberty, or personal security without encryption.

We should assert that right. We should have the right to use encryption for our communications and to secure our documents at rest, and never be compelled to reveal a key or passphrase. Doesn't this sound like something that would have been in the Bill of Rights if it were written today?

We can still mention all the other reasons why encryption is good and beneficial, but always starting our conversations with the words: encryption is a fundamental right.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by dbcurtis on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:30PM (#11270360)
Yes, we should assert that right. And there is no reason not to go after a constitutional amendment to clarify the right. It should not be necessary, I believe it is already covered. But the equal rights amendment should not have been necessary, either. In fact, the federalists thought the bill of rights was unnecessary. It was the Anti-Federalists that drove the first 10 Amendments.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by mgraczyk on Saturday March 12, 2016 @04:01AM (#11272016)
I agree with your main point, but the equal rights amendment was never passed. Due to the broadening of interpretation of the fourteenth amendment over time, it has not been necessary.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by alfiedotwtf on Friday March 11, 2016 @05:12PM (#11269908)
The right to encryption falls under Article 19 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by devishard on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:23PM (#11270325)
That's not clear enough. I agree that you can't have those things without private communication but not everyone does.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by Godel_unicode on Saturday March 12, 2016 @02:47AM (#11271762)
But why does that private communication have to be digital? Does "it would be really annoying not to have this" rise to the level of a fundamental right?

Does this right to expression apply to data at rest?

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by devishard on Saturday March 12, 2016 @09:06PM (#11275788)
This way of approaching human rights as a set of legalistic technicalities nauseates me.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by EvanPlaice on Friday March 11, 2016 @08:50PM (#11270894)
The widespread dragnet of data collection currently used is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment of the Bill of Rights.

> "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This should be amended to include data but from a legal standpoint it should stand that information/communications that are stored/accessed locally on a personal computer fall under 'effects'.

Backdooring into your computer without prior authorization and/or the justification backed by a warrant is illegal and a violation of the rights of US citizens.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by decasteve on Friday March 11, 2016 @11:01PM (#11271346)
This also falls under Section 2 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms of Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and...
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by thomasahle on Friday March 11, 2016 @05:27PM (#11269996)
It appears to be more about being allowed to communicate, than being allowed to do so privately.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by Retra on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:23PM (#11271236)
Is there some restriction on what language in which you're allowed to communicate? Encryption is just a language.

To say I don't have a right to use encryption is to say I don't have a right to speak things that other can't understand. And I see: it's not my fault you don't understand.

If you want access to encrypted information, break the encryption. Outsmart me. Don't make it illegal for me to outsmart you.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by MajesticHobo on Friday March 11, 2016 @05:52PM (#11270125)
The line of reasoning, is, IMO:

You have the right to communicate freely -> encryption is just a form of (ostensibly garbled) communication -> you have the right to use encryption freely.

Nothing in that clause says the communication must be understandable or even interpretable by all people.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by alkonaut on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:17PM (#11270281)
You could argue that freedom to communicate covers the use of encryption. If encryption was outlawed however, it wouldn't be the right for individuals to use it that would be outlawed, it would be the right for companies to sell products with strong encryption, or to do so without backdoors. That in turn would deny many the use of crypto, but it would not deny them the freedom to communicate.

I don't think outlawing maths or outlawing companies from making an iPhone that they themselves can't break into is even remotely possible. The conclusion from that is that what we have can't really be a war on crypto, it must simply be the noise of people who realized they already lost.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by xanthopan on Friday March 11, 2016 @05:21PM (#11269974)
As far as international rights go, but what happens if this is in conflict with federal law?
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by chongli on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:53PM (#11270474)
Fundamental rights are not a whitelist of approved behaviours. Just because there's no official document sitting in archive saying we have the right to encryption doesn't mean it's not a fundamental right.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by jackfoxy on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:12PM (#11271195)
Amendment 9 - Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by paulddraper on Friday March 11, 2016 @09:30PM (#11271031)
It means that right is protected by law. That is a whitelist.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by JoeAltmaier on Friday March 11, 2016 @06:56PM (#11270480)
In the US its always been a contentious issue - are human rights limited to a list? We have a bill that enumerates some of them. Its very creation was seen as a problem by some, since that would imply no others exist. And that's what's happened through history.

Freedom of the press and of speech should have been extended to electronic communications. But they have, so far, not been.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by omginternets on Saturday March 12, 2016 @04:30AM (#11272111)
If we frame this as a right to privacy, we already have a lot lof legal precedent. Roe v. Wade comes readily to mind.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by s_q_b on Saturday March 12, 2016 @04:42AM (#11272150)
The right exists.. It's called the "right to private corespondence. There was discussion about putting it into the first amendment, but it never happened.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by peteretep on Friday March 11, 2016 @11:02PM (#11271349)

    > demand that encryption is a fundamental right just as
    > freedom of speech is a fundamental right
Is it though? Most human rights prevent law enforcement from random trespass in to your home to look through your things, which is arguably a human right too. But these are specifically overruled by a warrant.

Why should the content of your electronic data be more protected than the content of the paperwork (bank records, health records, etc) in your home?

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by natch on Friday March 11, 2016 @11:28PM (#11271403)
Not sure if you're open to hearing an answer to your "why should" question, which may have been rhetorical.

The electronic data is a lot richer and more personal than just documents. It's more like an extension of your brain, than an extension of your home.

It also features live incoming personal and private data from friends, family, and other contacts who may be put in danger if their information (location, for example) is exposed to unsavory people. (Note, governments can and do sometimes have unsavory people working alongside the good people.)

To the extent that encryption protects all this information, yes it should be considered as much a right as the right to have private thoughts, which seems to be fairly widely accepted.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by peteretep on Friday March 11, 2016 @11:30PM (#11271412)
It certainly does. Whether or not that's a substantial enough difference is going to be one for the courts - I note in the US that cops can't search your phone (but can search your wallet) on a routine stop for exactly the reasons you outline.

I guess my point was that it doesn't seem prima facie to me that your electronic data is more privileged than your non-electronic data is all, and your non-electronic data is certainly subject to warrant

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by nitrogen on Saturday March 12, 2016 @02:01AM (#11271675)
The use of a warrant and the use of encryption should be completely orthogonal. It has nothing to do with "privilege" of electronic information. It's simply about the format in which information is stored.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by Godel_unicode on Saturday March 12, 2016 @02:58AM (#11271784)
Except that using encryption can directly affect the ability to execute the warrant, similarly to how you would use a shredder on physical documents.

The files are in a state which is extremely difficult to work with, for the express purpose of preventing their access even with a warrant. Is that obstruction of justice? It would be with a shredder or a safe wired to burn papers if forced open.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by treebeard901 on Friday March 11, 2016 @07:05PM (#11270524)
Is there another example where math has been made illegal?
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by programmarchy on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:47PM (#11271308)
Yup, whenever it threatens the power of the priesthood / bureaucracy. The Roman Catholic Inquisition condemning Galileo for heliocentrism comes to mind.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by drdeca on Saturday March 12, 2016 @03:04AM (#11271795)
Recently I heard that this was more based on /how/ he went about talking about it, more than just that he claimed it.
Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by djillionsmix on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:18PM (#11271216)
Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to commit criminal acts, though.

In a very real sense, crypto is such a freedom.

I don't think that's something that governments can accept, in the long term.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by fweespee_ch on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:30PM (#11271265)
It is also the freedom not to have your bank account looted. Or are you also planning to give up things like online banking?

The reality is the more you pass the keys to this sort of thing around the greater the risks.

EDIT:

Since I'm rate limited...

You do realize the Freedom of Speech was literally created to enable political dissent that used to involve criminal acts?

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/con01.htm

> The inhabitants of the North American colonies did not have a legal right to express opposition to the British government that ruled them. Nonetheless, throughout the late 1700s, these early Americans did voice their discontent with the Crown. For example, they strongly denounced the British parliament's enactment of a series of taxes to pay off a large national debt that England had incurred in its Seven Years War with France. In newspaper articles, pamphlets and through boycotts, the colonists raised what would become their battle cry: "No taxation without representation!" And in 1773, the people of the Massachusetts Bay Colony demonstrated their outrage at the tax on tea in a dramatic act of civil disobedience: the Boston Tea Party.

> The colonies' most celebrated seditious libel prosecution was that of John Peter Zenger in 1735. Zenger, publisher of the 'New York Weekly Journal', had printed a series of scathing criticisms of New York's colonial governor. Although the law was against Zenger, a jury found him not guilty -- in effect, nullifying the law and expressing both the jurors' contempt for British rule and their support for a free and unfettered press. After Zenger's acquittal, the British authorities abandoned seditious libel prosecutions in the colonies, having concluded that such prosecutions were no longer an effective tool of repression.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by djillionsmix on Saturday March 12, 2016 @02:12PM (#11274043)
>You do realize the Freedom of Speech was literally created to enable political dissent that used to involve criminal acts?

key word: used to.

The people, via the vehicle of the government, collectively decided to make those acts legal, thus giving people the freedom to commit legal, non-criminal acts of speech, which were 1. legal, and 2. not illegal.

It is trivially easy for anyone not emotionally invested in failing to understand it, to understand how this is different from giving people the freedom to commit acts that everybody agrees are illegal, should be illegal, and should stay illegal, just because apple has figured out how to engineer a product 100% immune to government scrutiny.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by fweespee_ch on Saturday March 12, 2016 @02:43PM (#11274197)
> It is trivially easy for anyone not emotionally invested in failing to understand it, to understand how this is different from giving people the freedom to commit acts that everybody agrees are illegal, should be illegal, and should stay illegal, just because apple has figured out how to engineer a product 100% immune to government scrutiny.

I could have, and did have, devices 100% immune to government scrutiny before the iPhone existed. So, you go ahead and believe that if you want. It isn't true in any real sense beyond popular history that isn't rooted in reality.

Similarly, encryption doesn't give you the ability to commit those acts. I have the ability to commit those acts without encryption. Your logic can be used to ban everything from guns to crowbars to cars.

You can't simply ban tools because you feel people use them criminally. That works literally 0 times because the criminals are simply going to keep using the tools anyway.

> The people, via the vehicle of the government, collectively decided to make those acts legal, thus giving people the freedom to commit legal, non-criminal acts of speech, which were 1. legal, and 2. not illegal.

Yes. That doesn't change the principle was based upon the right to rebel via speech against the Government. That principle hasn't changed since the founding. Removing the ability to communicate privately removes the ability to dissent privately.

You are a very short term thinker and operate under the assumption it'll be used solely in truly important and critical criminal investigations. That is not the case historically with this sort of power. This power also provides you with essentially nothing in return for giving up that ability to act privately.

France had the power to stop the terrorist attacks and has everything the people in power in the US ask for, they failed [despite being warned by a friendly government about some of the attackers].

What exactly do you expect to get out of this?

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by djillionsmix on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:49PM (#11271315)
Nothing you've said is an argument against anything that I said.

If you think that it is, then you think I've said something I haven't said.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by ethbro on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:45PM (#11271304)
Substituting a straw man doesn't undercut parent's point.

Right to true encryption is tantamount to right to perfect privacy, including privacy for committing crimes. This has been the current situation if true crypto was properly used for a while but we seem to be moving into a world beyond that - where such crypto is available to anyone who purchases a mobile phone and configures a few options.

I believe (and I would assume you do to) that widespread encryption is the preferable choice over key escrow, but let's not pretend that ready accessible consumer hard encryption doesn't fundamentally alter the balance between government and its citizens (including in some morally questionable ways).

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by fweespee_ch on Friday March 11, 2016 @10:52PM (#11271323)
> I believe (and I would assume you do to) that widespread encryption is the preferable choice over key escrow, but let's not pretend that ready accessible consumer hard encryption doesn't fundamentally alter the balance between government and its citizens (including in some morally questionable ways).

It has existed for centuries. Ease of access isn't some magical balance of power altering problem.

People can break encryption through various attacks [Keyloggers, observing people entering their keycodes, etc]. The government should have to go that route too, just like they do to break into literally everything else. They hire a professional.

Encryption isn't some magical shield and is breakable without attacking it directly.

http://www.wired.com/2012/11/ff-the-manuscript/

> For more than 260 years, the contents of that page—and the details of this ritual—remained a secret. They were hidden in a coded manuscript, one of thousands produced by secret societies in the 18th and 19th centuries. At the peak of their power, these clandestine organizations, most notably the Freemasons, had hundreds of thousands of adherents, from colonial New York to imperial St. Petersburg. Dismissed today as fodder for conspiracy theorists and History Channel specials, they once served an important purpose: Their lodges were safe houses where freethinkers could explore everything from the laws of physics to the rights of man to the nature of God, all hidden from the oppressive, authoritarian eyes of church and state. But largely because they were so secretive, little is known about most of these organizations. Membership in all but the biggest died out over a century ago, and many of their encrypted texts have remained uncracked, dismissed by historians as impenetrable novelties.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by ethbro on Saturday March 12, 2016 @08:35AM (#11272789)
> Ease of access isn't some magical balance of power altering problem. [...] People can break encryption through various attacks [Keyloggers, observing people entering their keycodes, etc].

This is where we disagree. What you've enumerated are attacks of convenience against a cryptographic implementation, not cryptography itself. And this is exactly what ease of access dramatically shifts.

The real twist isn't that Apple is suddenly providing quality encryption. We've had unbreakable encryption since the first one-time pad. IMHO, the FBI et al. didn't care because a statistically relevant number of people didn't use it. The twist is that Apple suddenly packaged that up into a consumer device with a quality implementation and all the hard details handled. And the FBI et al. do care because a very statistically relevant number of people use iPhones.

So yes, ease of access is a balance altering change. Because really, I don't think the government cares if hard encryption exists: it cares if lots of people use it.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by fweespee_ch on Saturday March 12, 2016 @12:07PM (#11273531)
> What you've enumerated are attacks of convenience against a cryptographic implementation

That is how you break into vaults, fyi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_4HQMS-pk

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by ethbro on Sunday March 13, 2016 @10:23AM (#11277778)
The difference is that it's impossible to make a perfectly secure vault (correct me if I'm wrong). But... physics.

You can encrypt something that will need hypothetical quantum computers / processing until the heat death of the universe to decrypt without the key.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by fweespee_ch on Sunday March 13, 2016 @11:14AM (#11277948)
You can make a vault that destroys the contents and is perfectly secure except for the implementation. That is basically the iPhone "problem" the FBI are complaining about.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8017041/MI6-Q...

> When forty spectators assembled for an outdoor trial, they reported that the safe seemed to be “on the point of explosion” and the gas issuing out of holes in the bottom of the safe meant it was “lifted some inches off the ground” forcing observes to retire to a “place of safety behind the building.”

Nothing really prevents you from having a safe that after N failed attempts from destroying the contents with explosives.

Re:Why Are We Fighting the Crypto Wars Again? by ethbro on Tuesday March 15, 2016 @01:31PM (#11291374)
> Nothing really prevents you from having a safe that after N failed attempts from destroying the contents with explosives.

I would hope that a number of laws prohibit my carrying on my person a small safe filled with explosives and a known-effective trigger. Hypothetically, we could create such a safe.

Practically, however, we could not create one that would be as easily and broadly used as an iPhone. Therefore, the nature of the social question presented by a perfectly secure (for all intents and purposes, or at least a future iteration that is) mass market device is fairly novel.