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Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by forgetsusername on Monday March 07, 2016 @07:46AM (#11238554)
I sort of went down the rabbit hole in The Guardian's Generation Y coverage, and ended up in an article with Millennials confessing their greatest fears:

“I worry that I’m never going to live up to my own expectations. I live in terror that I will wake up on my 50th birthday in a perfectly ordinary house, with a perfectly ordinary family and unremarkable job – living an unremarkable, ordinary, average life.

If these are your biggest fears in life, take a step back to realize what you've got. Entitlement and bizarre expectations about what "life" is are to blame here. Not every one is above average.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by speeder on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:03AM (#11238627)
I am 28 years old.

My biggest fear in life is waking up on my 50th and not owning a house, not having a family, and not having a ordinary job... because so far is how my life is going.

I currently live with my parents, have negative net worth, have no friends, no girlfriend, no job, and can't afford to buy a new PC, and my current one is trying to die on me, and I need it to do the occasional odd-job that shows up.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by kingkawn on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:05AM (#11238879)
Obviously if your life is not matching the expectations built into you from before you were aware it was happening it is because the expectations are bullshit. I am looking forward to a return to communal living and away from these ridiculous status markers being labeled independence and success.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by fucking_tragedy on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:31AM (#11239034)
Where do you get the idea that we'll return to communal living?

For hundreds of years, we've been taught that it is "I versus Everyone Else" in economically liberal societies. To think that will go away, and not go into hyperdrive, when people are desperate, cold and hungry seems unrealistic to me.

I truly want my assumption to be proven wrong, though.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by gavazzy on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:16AM (#11238930)
Having a standard of living is a status marker? If you want to live in a commune, why don't you convince 10 other people to go live with you out on a farm?
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by pm90 on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:30AM (#11239029)
I did not downvote, but I really disagree with this sentiment. Financial independence for young people is probably the most revolutionary concept in Western culture and is definitely the reason behind so much innovation not just in technology, but in society as well.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by rnernento on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:15AM (#11238925)
What skills do you have? What are you doing to improve them?

What job do you want? What's preventing you from getting a position somewhere in that field?

I'm assuming you're putting a lot of work into achieving your goals, what are the obstacles you're coming up against?

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by pcurve on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:44AM (#11239124)
Based on his profile, he might live in Brazil which is now an economic basket case.

So that might be his biggest obstacle.

There are so many substandard developers making $100k in the u.s. that would never be able to find job elsewhere in the world, those of us who live in the U.S. should really be grateful despite all of its shortcomings.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by jazzyk on Monday March 07, 2016 @03:14PM (#11241277)
The distribution of substandard developers making a purchasing-power equivalent of $100K (allowing for free healthcare, college education, lower housing costs) is probably similar in most countries with a well-developed IT sector.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by miseg on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:55AM (#11238832)
What kind of tasks do you need a computer for? From that you could determine how much you need to spend on a replacement one (probably a free one or a cheap second-hand one).
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by gregatragenet3 on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:26AM (#11239008)
My generations biggest fear was that there would be a global thermonuclear war that destroyed civilization, and those few that survived would have short miserable lives picking through the ashes ala 'the road'. Being 50 and renting a house instead of owning it doesn't sound that bad to me.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by ZenoArrow on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:33AM (#11239054)
> "My generations biggest fear was that there would be a global thermonuclear war that destroyed civilization"

That may still happen, Generation X doesn't get to claim that one as solely their own.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by cableshaft on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:01AM (#11239232)
It was a much more real threat in the 80's and early 90's, though. I highly doubt students are still forced to watch bullshit educational "duck and cover" videos on how hiding under their desks will somehow save them from a nuclear explosion.

That being said, kids have something else to replace that fear with nowadays: the constant potential threat of a possible school shooter.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by tzs on Monday March 07, 2016 @02:33PM (#11240982)
There is a considerable area that is far enough away from a nuclear explosion to not be obliterated, but close enough that buildings may collapse, windows may be converted into deadly projectiles, and so on. Duck and cover would in fact save many many lives in that area.

The Wikipedia article has details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_cover

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by ZenoArrow on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:50AM (#11239493)
> "It was a much more real threat in the 80's and early 90's, though. I highly doubt students are still forced to watch bullshit educational "duck and cover" videos on how hiding under their desks will somehow save them from a nuclear explosion."

I agree that it was more prominent in the public imagination, and you're right that "duck and cover" videos and similar were part of what kept it there, but I would dispute that the threat is any less 'real' now than it was in the 80's.

Looking around the world, I'd say there are currently three regions of instability that could lead to nuclear weapons used in anger (I'd add a fourth one if Trump is elected US President, and I'm not joking about that, the guy has already called for killing innocent people to further his own goals (killing the families of terrorists), and I could see Trump and Putin being a toxic combination in terms of diplomatic action).

The three regions I'm referring to are:

1. North Korea.

2. Middle East.

3. India and Pakistan.

North Korea are clearly threatening to develop nuclear weapons, and have a powerful ally in China, which allows them to get away with it so far. Even if the weapons are developed as a form of self defence, the question is what the leadership sees as valid threats, and considering their somewhat ruthless approach to their own people, I wouldn't put it past the North Korean government to do something reckless beyond their own borders.

The Middle East appears to be a huge mess, I'm sure I don't need to explain how chaotic the region is. Isreal are the only country in the region with nuclear weapons at the moment, but with the activity in the region it never seems far from disaster. Even if Isreal didn't push the button themselves, other more radical groups may go down that route. Russia's support for Assad and Turkey's membership of NATO are a bit of a concern when viewed in combination.

India and Pakistan are both nuclear powers, engaged with a minor conflict with each other over their borders. Things appear to be settling down recently but if either side gets a war-hungry government then work on developing a peaceful resolution could be undone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Pakistan_border_skirmish...

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by cableshaft on Monday March 07, 2016 @12:35PM (#11240168)
I don't dispute that nuclear weapons could come into play again in the future, just that a truly global thermonuclear war is much less likely now than in the past. Sure North Korea might try to launch a nuclear missile or two (coincidentally they just threatened to do so today) and get wiped out in the process, and yeah, some terrorists would probably love to detonate a suitcase nuke somewhere, but that's not the same thing as a truly global event that threatens all of humanity as we know it.

During the Cold War there was a really good chance of that happening, and there were several instances where equipment malfunctioned (and showed impending missile launches when where there was none) and the only thing that stopped it was the right general making a smart call that it wasn't real, or several other close calls, from global destruction.

North Korea isn't likely to bring that about. The Middle East isn't too likely to bring that about. India and Pakistan aren't going to bring that in either.

Russia is still capable to do that, but I think they're not too serious about their desire to actually go into war and are more taking advantage of NATO's unwillingness to go into war to make a few small land grabs (that was a little scary, though).

The tension and complex web of polar opposite alliances across the whole world just isn't there like it was in WWI, WWII, and Cold War days. It could still develop in the next decade or two, sure, but I really don't think we're there right now.

For all the ills that Capitalism might have, I do think it's helped tie all the countries that participate in it to each other's fates, to a certain extent, and they don't want to see the other countries fail (or attack them directly) since it will now affect their own economy, probably for the worst.

Trump is a wild card, but I think assuming he won the nomination he'll calm down his rhetoric, since he needs to in order to win the moderate vote anyway. If he actually made it into office, then that's admittedly a wild card. I'd like to think that he didn't actually believe that shit he said and will be more concerned with internal politics than foreign, and/or will head the advice of people who have been there a lot longer. Hopefully.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by ende on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:23PM (#11242998)
The danger of thermonuclear war is just as real (yet remote) today as the danger (and remoteness) of a school shooting in the 80s. The only difference is the popular perception of that threat as fueled by the media.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by DannoHung on Tuesday March 08, 2016 @12:07PM (#11246587)
I'm in Gen Y. My biggest fear is that an ecological disaster will kill half of the humans alive and society will regress to feudalism.

Which I would actually consider worse than a nuclear wasteland in some significant ways.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by ericcholis on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:02AM (#11238869)
Some people might view your situation as very advantageous. No ties, no strings attached, nothing to hold you back. Your opportunity in life is a blank slate, in a good way.

Take every odd job that shows up, and amass some savings towards a long-term goal. Travel the US, or the world if you can manage.

Making friends is easy, keeping them can hard. Join some local clubs/organizations and put yourself out there.

Fear can be a motivator if you let it, use it to help you avoid the undesirable outcome.

Some of these sound like platitudes, but they do hold substance. It's easy to find yourself in a situation that seems hopeless. What you do from that place is important.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by gerbilly on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:17AM (#11238675)
Reminds me of this Zen story:

A rich man asked a Zen master to write something down that could encourage the prosperity of his family for years to come. It would be something that the family could cherish for generations. On a large piece of paper, the master wrote, "Father dies, son dies, grandson dies."

The rich man became angry when he saw the master's work. "I asked you to write something down that could bring happiness and prosperity to my family. Why do you give me something depressing like this?"

"If your son should die before you," the master answered, "this would bring unbearable grief to your family. If your grandson should die before your son, this also would bring great sorrow. If your family, generation after generation, disappears in the order I have described, it will be the natural course of life. This is true happiness and prosperity."

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by jrs235 on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:31AM (#11239390)
Related:

An executive from America was standing at the pier of a Mexican village, taking a much needed vacation. It was his first in more than 10 years. He noticed a small boat docked with just one fisherman on board. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The executive complimented the Mexican fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The fisherman replied, only a little while.

The executive then asked, why didnt you stay out longer and catch more fish?

The fisherman replied, I have enough to support my family for a little while.

The executive then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time?

The Mexican fisherman said, I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, and stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life.

The executive scoffed, I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise.

The Mexican fisherman asked, But, how long will this all take?

To which the American replied, 15-20 years.

But what then?

The American laughed and said thats the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions.

Millions.. Then what?

The American said, Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, and stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Delmania on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:51AM (#11239498)
This is almost accurate, it's missing the last bit, which is that the exec returned to the US and quit his job after realizing what he just said.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by jahnu on Monday March 07, 2016 @07:54AM (#11238588)
Yeah some people do seem to be very entitled.

But at the same time this shouldn't preclude a conversation about why, given the massively increased pool of wealth that has been created in the last few decades, the poor and middle classes are expected not to share in it.

It's definitely healthy for me to recognise that I as a middle class westerner live better than almost everyone in a developing economy but if the answer to "where has all the new wealth gone?" is not "too the poorest economies!" then I think it's only natural to feel cheated if the answer is "be happy with what you have and stop asking questions!"

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:14AM (#11238918)
What specific goods and services do you believe have become available, but not for the poor and middle classes? Can you name a few?

It's definitely healthy for me to recognise that I as a middle class westerner live better than almost everyone in a developing economy but if the answer to "where has all the new wealth gone?" is not "too the poorest economies!"

Luckily, the answer is "to the poor and middle class".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-...

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by notahacker on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:53AM (#11239182)
Since the subject is "where does the money go", how does that graph look if the changes in income are absolute rather than percentage changes of a power-law shaped pre-existing income distribution?

As you would be the first to agree though, wealth increases need not be zero sum. For the most part, growth in developing and middle income countries isn't at the expense of wealthier countries at all.

On the other hand, rising costs of London property - referenced in the article as a key concern of "millenials" - is pretty close to a zero sum game, and it's generally not poor and middle class people, and certainly not the lower deciles of world income, that are winning it.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:01AM (#11239229)
Since the subject is "where does the money go",

Actually I'm trying to change the subject from money. Who cares about green pieces of paper multiplied by chained CPI [1]? What matters is goods and services.

As noted above I don't think you can name a single good and service that the bottom has less of, beyond maybe obsolete goods like land lines or investments like "shares in BRK.A" or "land in central London".

The graph I link to demonstrates things are definitively not zero sum - virtually everyone has experienced gains.

[1] Chained CPI is meaningless over time, since the basket of goods changes every year. Not to mention the biggest contributors to CPI growth - health care and education - are not hedonically adjusted.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by notahacker on Monday March 07, 2016 @12:23PM (#11240067)
But the subject of the article is younger low/middle income people in wealthy countries like Britain now getting a raw deal relative to older asset-rich people because the young people spend most of their incomes on maintaining a level of property older people paid for at much lower cost (in terms of real goods or as a proportion of income), whilst simultaneously having more of their income diverted to the older, often asset-rich people's rising-in-real-terms public pensions. Your graph of world income changes does not demonstrate that British public policies aimed at boosting house prices and transferring a greater proportion of national income to today's pensioners aren't [close to] a zero sum game stacked against the young, or that the chief beneficiaries of this increase in economic rent captured by older generations and the asset-rich in Britain are the global poor, which obviously isn't true.

It might be open to question how many young people with much less living space than previous generations actually are worse off given that thanks to economic development they'll live longer and have access to digital goods that didn't exist and more opportunity to avoid expensive housing through increased relocation opportunity than their elders did at the same age. But then again, if I wanted a graph which indicates a large fraction of people in countries like Britain who would be considered low-mid income by national standards are actually worse off, I could always use yours...

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @12:53PM (#11240277)
If you scroll up, you'll see I was responding to a person who said there is a problem if the new wealth is not going to the poorest economies.

If you are simply advocating in favor of ending left wing policies like exclusionary zoning and buying elderly votes with cash taken from the young, I agree with you.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by notahacker on Monday March 07, 2016 @01:38PM (#11240595)
As I read their post, they were actually saying something more akin to "it's perfectly fair for low and middle income people in rich countries to complain about policy regimes limiting their ability to share in domestic productivity gains even though there are much poorer people overseas, since those policy regimes aren't actually anything to do with those poorer people"[1]

Which didn't strike me as the sort of sentiment you'd tend to disagree with either.

[1]by implication they're arguing they'd be less bothered if their purchasing power wasn't growing due to outsourcing competing with their job, since at least that'd be helping poorer people out.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by callinyouin on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:25AM (#11238705)
I find it pretty hard to believe that the quoted fear is particular to millennials. The fear of not meeting life expectations, personal or otherwise, has been a worry for young people since forever. Millennials certainly aren't the first to "dream big".
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by matwood on Monday March 07, 2016 @07:57AM (#11238605)
> Not every one is above average.

Also important to remember that almost everyone on this site is going to be way above average income wise.

Sometimes I get the feeling like you were responding to, and then I remind myself that I grew up with next to nothing. I was lucky enough to realize in college (computers were just becoming ubiquitous when I started college) I had a knack for programming and it was the right time to have that knack. I have had experiences I never thought possible when I was a kid.

But there is a benefit to the feeling - the drive work hard.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by madaxe_again on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:45AM (#11238788)
drive work hard

Agreed. It is precisely because I found myself on a trundling career that had little in the way of prospects after graduation (and that job I found by literally showing up on doorsteps and being a general pain in the ass), no hope of ever owning property in London, being stuck in a squalid flatshare, and having nothing to lose that I gave it all up (not that there was much to give up), started a company, lived in a squat, and a decade on employ 50 people and own (well, the bank owns me) the roof over my head.

What was it Baldwin said? "The most dangerous creation in the world, in any society, is the man with nothing to lose."

This world is currently producing vast numbers of young people with nothing to lose. Some despair, others start businesses, others start criminal enterprises or join IS.

While there's something to be said for the motivation that the total absence of prospects can grant, it's a generally crappy situation which would better be served by reducing wealth inequality. Dare I say "Universal Income".

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by forgetsusername on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:14AM (#11238661)
>But there is a benefit to the feeling - the drive work hard.

I agree with the sorts of benefits that this feeling can induce in the best of cases.

On the other hand, I don't think that everyone really understands what "hard work" means. To the self-entitled it means "got a college education" and "show up for work every day". Well so did everyone else.

I don't know, I have mixed feelings about this. I realize that this generation is getting stiffed in a sense, by circumstances beyond their control. But hey, we aren't growing up having to go to war in Europe, or during the Depression, or the Bubonic plague for that matter. So we've got that going for us, which is nice. Ever rising economic standards on a magnified level (meaning every generation is richer than the previous, not just by overall trend) doesn't seem plausible over the long-term. We need to get used to that.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:52AM (#11238816)
If you look at productivity, working 'hard' is not the problem. Generation Y gets far more done for far less money.

Killing off unions and free trade has been awesome for those at the top, but shit for 99% of the population.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:17AM (#11238942)
Clearly. The 40-80% growth in real income for the bottom 50% has been terrible, in contrast to the 0-60% income growth achieved by the top 25%.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/...

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:49AM (#11239156)
2008 is 8 years ago right before that second dip. Clearly that chart is trying to sell you BS.

"From 1948 to 1979, productivity rose 108.1 percent, and hourly compensation increased 93.4 percent. From 1979 to 2013, productivity rose 64.9 percent, and hourly compensation rose 8.2 percent." http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/

Figure 3: (1979 - 2013) Top 1% up 138% Bottom 90% up 15%.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:55AM (#11239198)
As far as I'm aware the World Bank doesn't collect this data very often. If you have more recent data feel free to post it.

The data you are citing is restricted to a slice of the top 20% of the world. Indians and Chinese (i.e. the bottom 50% or so) don't count?

Also note that you cite data on productivity for the economy as a whole, but hourly compensation only for "production and nonsupervisory workers". That's a weird comparison to make - what if the increase in productivity was caused primarily by people outside this narrow group?

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:06AM (#11239254)
I think I found the source of that chart. When we line up all individuals in the world, from the poorest to the richest. http://www.voxeu.org/article/global-income-distribution-1988

So, it says just about nothing about the US income distribution.

PS: I suspect that bump is basically China + India, and the Dip is the US/EU middle class. Yes, outsourcing and free trade is great for other people.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by yummyfajitas on Monday March 07, 2016 @10:15AM (#11239303)
What tipped you off, the label on the X-axis?

It's not great for wealthy people who were enjoying economic rents by excluding desperately poor people from the global economy. So what? Do people earning $2,000/year (1/10 of what a poor American consumes) not count?

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @01:23PM (#11240469)
Helping the global poor is a great soundbite, but there are plenty of ways to do the same thing without harming the vast majority of Americans.

Of note the rich got a free ride while breaking the US middle class. That's actually bad for long term economic growth. It also entrenched and entrenched authoritarian governments around the world ex: China.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by gregatragenet3 on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:19AM (#11238958)
Improved per-worker productivity metrics down not mean workers are working harder. It means you can now Google something in 30 seconds instead of spending 2 hours at a library - and similar effects with other tasks.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:50AM (#11239167)
The timers at grocery checkout does not 'aid' productivity. It sure does cause people to work harder. There are a lot of these computer based taskmasters out there for a huge range of jobs. Scheduling assistants very closely match number of workers with expected and observed demand. So, now every hour can be rush hour.

etc etc.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by stevetrewick on Monday March 07, 2016 @12:54PM (#11240282)
Either : "The timers at grocery checkout does not 'aid' productivity."

Or: "It sure does cause people to work harder."

Both of these sentences cannot be true at the same time.

/drove a checkout part time for 4 years a while back, proud of my scan rates. There is an art to it the mastery of which brings great satisfaction.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by Retric on Monday March 07, 2016 @01:17PM (#11240426)
They mean different things. Productivity 'Aid' generally reduces effort required, such as google search or a nail gun. Playing music is a classic motivator that does not reduce effort.

PS: I am sure the company’s bottom line loved your metrics. But, again that’s just driving corporate profits not middle class incomes.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by matwood on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:35AM (#11238739)
> On the other hand, I don't think that everyone really understands what "hard work" means. To the self-entitled it means "got a college education" and "show up for work every day". Well so did everyone else.

I agree. Going to college and showing up is baseline. I do think that kids today come across as entitled, but I'm sure I was the same way at 18 years old.

Having grown up helping my dad do labor type work for 2-3 jobs while trying to make ends meet, I know hard labor work. That is something I never want to have to do again.

Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone. What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many.

IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers. The people who would never have gone to college regardless of cost. The people who would have had great lives in a factory situation.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by fucking_tragedy on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:19AM (#11238954)
>Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone.

This is fairly myopic and complements the common tech-centric sentiment seen around here of "Why don't you just teach yourself to program and pull in six figures? You can do it for free!"

> What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many.

Our current upheaval in economic relations makes it next to impossible for many to plan to make a living in the long-term. Pulling a jack-of-all-trades switch up every few years is less self-reliance and more desperation.

> IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers.

This has always been the case. The problem now is that what were once secure, well-paying white collar jobs no longer are. As time marches on, these degree holders are not seeing fair compensation or opportunities for a career. These people are being driven into being the new poor and blue collar working classes.

And that's always been a shit place to be.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by beisner on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:39AM (#11238752)
But on the third hand, defining "hard work" relatively rather than absolutely is misleading. Sure, what you described might be the norm and not exceptional, but that should not mean that its value is lessened by relative comparison. If everyone works 40 hours a week for 50 years straight, do they not deserve at least some sense of economic viability and material success in a world that is literally teeming with economic riches? I think far fewer people would be upset with mediocrity if mediocrity were comfortable.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by bischofs on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:24AM (#11239000)
Yeah that is true, as a tech worker you have a good financial path ahead of you. But we have to remember that you can't build or maintain a society on software - people doing social work and working for non-profits need to be able to make ends meet just as we do. Not everyone can or even should be a dev, we need a large sum of people working on social programs and such to have a healthy society.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by fucking_tragedy on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:42AM (#11238765)
I can find someone out of touch with reality in Generation ___, as well.

Those are the fears of someone who has never had to worry about their next meal, a roof over their head, whether they can afford to see a doctor or if their kids will have a better life than they did.

There are plenty of people in Generation Y who would recognize that this person has been driven somewhat delusional through boredom and wealth.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by CuriouslyC on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:38AM (#11239083)
I can empathize with that person's fear. I wouldn't say that is my "greatest" fear (being horribly crippled and disfigured by some kind of nasty accident, and living in pain and dependence takes that spot) but it is definitely something that I think about.

At least in my case, it isn't so much that an average life is "bad"; I am obsessive about personal development, and I push myself extremely hard. Ending up "normal" would basically mean my work had been futile, which would be pretty depressing.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by cryoshon on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:21AM (#11238970)
To put this into context, the people around my age that I know are worried about being able to pay rent, having enough money to marry, paying off their student debt during their lifetime, and being so handicapped by a lack of money that they never get to retire, vacation, or travel.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by wcummings on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:15AM (#11238923)
I don't think it's about being "above average" or achievement, I think it's more about being railroaded into the bourgeoisie family ideal. Obviously this is a very middle class problem to have by definition, but I don't think that it's "entitled" or "bizarre" to feel stifled by social pressures. This anxiety is hardly specific to millennials.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by ZenoArrow on Monday March 07, 2016 @09:31AM (#11239037)
> "If these are your biggest fears in life, take a step back to realize what you've got. Entitlement and bizarre expectations about what "life" is are to blame here. Not every one is above average."

That's not what it's about. I'm a Millennial and whilst I would never word it like the author did, I understand where they're coming from.

The issue is with one of courage vs. conformity. The author fears those things because they see the paths that are expected of them, and doesn't like where they lead. If they were happy to live a simple life (and there's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want) then they wouldn't have those concerns.

Speaking as a Millennial in my 30s I've realised I'm prepared to give up on quite a lot in order to keep my own dreams alive. I'm not ready to 'settle down' into a life I do not want. My opinion may change as I get older, but for now I would rather avoid the trap of a huge mortgage and the lifestyle that must be maintained to support it (i.e. reduced career options, reduced travel options, etc...). It's not about entitlement, it's about recognising I have options.

Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by branchless on Monday March 07, 2016 @08:52AM (#11238820)
This is something you've chosen to quote and is not representative, and I don't agree with it. There is genuine generational inequality.
Re:Revealed: the 30-year economic betrayal dragging down Gen... by unprepare on Monday March 07, 2016 @03:24PM (#11241343)
To get there you had to scroll past:

>I worry I’ll never afford my own home, or always have to flatshare

>Salaries don’t, and never will, reflect the rising cost of living

>My degree was a waste of time

But i guess wanting to be a grown adult without having to have rommates is entitlement.

Retirees capturing more wealth than an entire generation of working college graduates? Dont be ridiculous, thats not entitlement.