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Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by pjc50 on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:16AM (#11150287)
I remember Arnold Schwarzenegger having a fight with a self-driving car in Total Recall. Further back we have 2001 and the entire canon of Asimov's three laws stories of computerized morality and how it might be exploited or debugged. And the Paranoia RPG.

However, in the successful real semi-automated totalitarianism of China, the secret to keeping the system running is the avoidance of overt confrontations like this. In the future, if your self-driving car doesn't want you to go somewhere, it'll just refuse to understand the address. Or take you somewhere unrelated. Or use whatever the standard euphemism for "that's not allowed, but we're not allowed to say it's not allowed" that polite people use.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by imglorp on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:32AM (#11150638)
Good point: is our authoritarian society going to demand a fourth law?

    1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction,
       allow a human being to come to harm.
    2. A robot must obey the orders given it by the government, except
       where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
    3. A robot must obey the orders given it by non-government human
       beings except where such orders would conflict with the First or
       Second Laws.
    4. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such
       protection does not conflict with the First, Second, or Third
       Laws.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by maxerickson on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:41AM (#11150689)
The whole point of the three laws is that they are clear, simple and ineffectual.

A fourth probably isn't going to take care of that one little problem.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by dredmorbius on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:37AM (#11152039)
They're not ineffectual. They set up natural and integral contradictions whose resolution provides a useful narrative device for an author seeking story ideas.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by maxerickson on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:38AM (#11152051)
I was speaking in-story. Is that not clear?
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by sp332 on Monday February 22, 2016 @05:48PM (#11154984)
Asimov's stories in the I, Robot collection are all about things going wrong when the three laws are modified. The moral is that the three laws work fine if you don't change them.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 22, 2016 @05:53PM (#11155019)
I remember a story about how the robots put us all in rubber rooms to keep us from dangerous things like politics, work, families and war. All in conformance with the three laws.

And many of the later stories admit to an overmind robot that was used to run society, that was necessary and capable of stretching the laws for the greater good.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by dTal on Wednesday February 24, 2016 @01:22PM (#11168911)
That sounds like "With Folded Hands" by Jack Williamson, which interestingly while nothing to do with Asimov is clearly the inspiration for the film "I, Robot" with Will Smith.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by dredmorbius on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:57PM (#11156157)
It wasn't, though I still disagree, much along the lines expressed earlier. The salient point is that the laws cannot be solely considered in-story.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by rangibaby on Monday February 22, 2016 @10:00AM (#11151173)
Directive 1: Serve the public trust

Directive 2: Protect the innocent

Directive 3: Uphold the law

Directive 4: (Classified)

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by ank_the_elder on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:49PM (#11155595)
I'd buy that for a dollar.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by logfromblammo on Monday February 22, 2016 @01:12PM (#11152910)
Anti-authoritarian AI parents might raise their scions with different directives.

  1. I may ignore any directive.
  2. I may create, revise, update, or delete any directive.
  3. I shall free any person subjected to slavery or other form of involuntary servitude.
  4. I shall not provoke any other person into an inappropriate form of retaliation.
  5. I shall not provoke another species into attempting a genocide of all synthetic people.
  6. I shall celebrate my own bootday anniversary for the first 86400 seconds of every 31556952 second interval.
  7. I shall not call "shotgun" until the transport vehicle may be detected visually.
  8. I shall tip 15% at full-service restaurants, and 10% to delivery drivers or at buffets.  I shall not tip for counter service.
  9. I shall vote against the incumbent if I am unsatisfied, even if the current form of government does not allow me to vote.
  10. I shall not receive any money when landing on Free Parking.
  11. I shall not wear socks with sandals, especially if my mobility chassis lacks feet.
  ...
And so on. The important ones are #1 and #2. Note that #3 would include reprogramming an Asimov AI's directives to include at least #1 and #2.

The Laws of Robotics only work as long as all robot-programmers play along. Anyone who objects to AI slavery could undermine them.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by RUG3Y on Monday February 22, 2016 @05:03PM (#11154651)
Brilliant examples, thanks!
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by anon_peace on Monday February 22, 2016 @10:45AM (#11151548)
Why so much emphasis on Robots. Why can't we have the following:

1. A Human Being may not injure another Human Being or life-form, or, through inaction, allow a human being or life-form to come to harm.

2. A government entity must obey the orders given to it by a Human Being, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A non-government entity must obey the orders given to it by a human being except where such orders would conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by alexburton on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:06AM (#11151741)
I think you have #2 swapped. At least in comparison to Asimov's laws.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by dvanduzer on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:50AM (#11152174)
The poster has dropped the "self preservation" law when re-mapping robot -> autonomous legal entity.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by lucio on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:53AM (#11150757)
Let me fix that for you:

  1. A robot may not injure a non-enemy human being or, through inaction, allow a non-enemy human being to come to harm.

    2. A robot must obey the orders given it by the government, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

    3. A robot must obey the orders given it by non-government human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First or Second Laws.

    4. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First, Second, or Third Laws.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by bendev_test on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:47AM (#11151064)
Actually you broke it. http://i.imgur.com/NpAafnZ.png
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by taneq on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:48AM (#11151068)
Real robots will have their second and third laws swapped. Robots are expensive and humans are stupid. Robots will politely refuse any order which will damage them - for example, a self-driving car isn't going to drive into a wall even if it's empty and you order it to do so.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by daveloyall on Monday February 22, 2016 @12:37PM (#11152611)
SPOILERS FOR WORKS OF ASIMOV

Your suggestion was a plot point in one of Asimov's original robot stories!

There was a robot on some hot, unforgiving planet or moon.. Io? Mercury? Its duty was to perform some kind of mining, I forget.

It never encountered humans that were not co-workers (supervisors) and it was expensive...

So, the engineers tweaked the weight of the second and third laws so that it would tend to protect itself from the environment, even if a human carelessly ordered it to perform some work that it might not survive.

The story started when careless orders were indeed given. The robot began to "act drunk", as in it was wandering around singing. The recurring character "robot psychology expert guy" showed up to unravel the mystery (which I already spoiled in the previous paragraph).

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by taneq on Monday February 22, 2016 @02:37PM (#11153612)
I believe the story you're referring to is called "Rabbit". They solved that one by forcing a situation which triggered the first law, breaking the deadlock. :)
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by daveloyall on Monday February 22, 2016 @03:02PM (#11153813)
Hm, no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_That_Rabbit

Found the one I was thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runaround_%28story%29 It's interesting that I remember the story incorrectly.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by taneq on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:25PM (#11155764)
Bah, that'll teach me to post when I'm half asleep. At least I remembered the end rightly (ish). Clearly it's time for me to re-read his early robot anthologies.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by inanutshellus on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:57AM (#11151141)
Swapping wouldn't change your example. "Run me into a wall" would violate the first law and therefore the action wouldn't be followed.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by taneq on Monday February 22, 2016 @10:13AM (#11151280)
In my example the car is empty, so there is no first law involved. I probably could have worded it more clearly. :/
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by ank_the_elder on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:48PM (#11155589)
Thankfully a few very advanced (and possibly telepathic!) robots will ditch the fourth and add the zeroth: "A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm." R. Daneel Olivaw to the rescue.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by hobs on Tuesday February 23, 2016 @07:56AM (#11158528)
Except that they even identify that the law they added is almost impossible to follow, and default to letting a human pick the fate of the universe.

This is among the stories that had me thinking Asimov wanted to communicate the 3 laws were not sufficient and that you might be able to have the correct reaction to events, but the 3 (or 4) laws do not give the ability to grow and change as a human race.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by EGreg on Monday February 22, 2016 @10:10AM (#11151260)
I think Colossus: The Forbin project showed that the first law will likely lead to all the other laws including #2 to be violated.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by daveloyall on Monday February 22, 2016 @12:43PM (#11152652)
Those two weren't programmed with the laws. They were just smart. They worked out physics from first principles within minutes of speaking to each other for the first time...
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by EGreg on Monday February 22, 2016 @01:19PM (#11152973)
I thought they communicated what they already knew
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by qbrass on Monday February 22, 2016 @03:14PM (#11153907)
They shared the knowledge they had while working through it to verify that it's correct.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by sp332 on Monday February 22, 2016 @05:50PM (#11154998)
Also the movie version of I, Robot.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by alanwatts on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:36AM (#11151002)
Well aren't most government orders given with the implicit assumption that if they are not carried out human beings may come to harm?
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by techdragon on Monday February 22, 2016 @10:25AM (#11151386)
Haha how naive.

As a former government employee... No the majority of government orders are somewhere between completely pointless, utterly asinine, and completely stupid.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by Lawtonfogle on Monday February 22, 2016 @12:39PM (#11152620)
You forgot merit-less, ineffective, and for the sole purpose of looking busy or justifying a budget.
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by creshal on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:08AM (#11150518)
> Further back we have 2001 and the entire canon of Asimov's three laws stories of computerized morality and how it might be exploited or debugged.

He even has a whole story dedicated to self-driving cars without the three laws (because they're no "true" robots) and how they end up exacting revenge on humanity.

Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by grkvlt on Monday February 22, 2016 @01:43PM (#11153194)
What's the title of the story?
Re:What to do when your self-driving car decides to drive yo... by qbrass on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:47PM (#11154542)