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Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by ktRolster on Monday February 15, 2016 @10:59AM (#11104005)
Alan S Blinder recently pointed out that cheap oil is mostly good for the economy (except in North Dakota and Iran). He also pointed out that markets can stay irrational for a long time.

I don't think oil is the cause of the market drop: stocks had been overbought for a while (if you look at historic P/E ratios), so it is natural for it to return to normal.

Also, the increasing interest rate is going to put downward pressure on the stock market, even if the economy does well. Right now that is what I consider to be the main cause of the drop. What I mean is:

In the market, there are day-traders, and long-term traders. The day traders are mostly responsible for the day-to-day gyrations of the market, and they've been looking at the price of oil as something to follow. Underneath that, though, the long-term traders have been removing money from the market (leaving it in cash, or switching to bonds), so even after the day traders get done, there is still a net negative.

Of course, that's a simplification for explanation purposes because I don't want to write a book here.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by applecore on Monday February 15, 2016 @11:55AM (#11104348)
> Also, the increasing interest rate is going to put downward pressure on the stock market, even if the economy does well. Right now that is what I consider to be the main cause of the drop.

Really? The 10-year Treasury yield (the best measure of long-term rates) has declined by 25% since the start of the year. No one is forecasting Fed interest rate hikes in 2016 anymore.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by cynicalkane on Monday February 15, 2016 @02:24PM (#11105305)
Long term yields lower in response to tight money, not loose money. Economists who study market expectations found that the 10 year treasury actually rose with QE expectations, for example. This is rational: lower inflation and stagnant economy -> lower interest rates.

At one point in time (sorry, I forget when) there was a surprising (to some) announcement of QE during which you could observe the result directly. The Fed announced it would buy more long term bonds, and the price of those long term bonds fell.

It is also possible to disturb the equilibrium in one direction while moving it in the other direction. In the example above, the change in equilibrium (higher interest rates) outweighed the disturbance (lower interest rates).

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by jwesleyharding on Monday February 15, 2016 @01:20PM (#11104952)
>I don't think oil is the cause of the market drop: stocks had been overbought for a while (if you look at historic P/E ratios), so it is natural for it to return to normal.

p/e ratios are historically very low relative to interest rates

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by AnimalMuppet on Monday February 15, 2016 @01:57PM (#11105167)
Because interest rates are very low relative to historic values. But they may not stay there; the Fed is starting to raise them. If they continue to do so, you're not left with the abnormally low interest rates, and so all you have is that stocks are high relative to P/E ratios. (I know, if...)
Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by toomuchtodo on Monday February 15, 2016 @12:29PM (#11104594)
> I don't think oil is the cause of the market drop: stocks had been overbought for a while (if you look at historic P/E ratios), so it is natural for it to return to normal.

If stocks are overbought, is that an indicator that there's a huge amount of money out there chasing returns? Returns it can't find elsewhere?

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by zo1 on Monday February 15, 2016 @12:36PM (#11104654)
Returns it has to find, otherwise you lose out due to inflation. I fully agree with you that there is a huge amount of money "chasing returns". Though I'd argue that it's more of a case of it being forced into chasing returns by virtue of all sorts of market distortions.

A simple example is that of capital gains. Which is "taxed" at a lower percentage (at least in USA) than normal salary/profit income. I would argue that this simple and relatively benign-looking "incentive" is actually a market distortion that has far-reaching consequences.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by toomuchtodo on Monday February 15, 2016 @12:39PM (#11104680)
> Returns it has to find, otherwise you lose out due to inflation.

That's my concern really. Money is running out of places to go.

* stocks (overbought)

* real estate (still recovering from the last failure; already overbought in major markets)

* auto loans (I hear murmurs we're in a subprime auto lending bubble)

* oil (obvious!)

If you're chasing returns, and you can't beat inflation (because you can't find those returns), your cash is slowly becoming worthless. Note my concern isn't because I have cash to invest: its because of the damage that rush of money has as it races into new "investment opportunities".

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by logfromblammo on Monday February 15, 2016 @01:50PM (#11105130)
So if you can't find a better return, you just drop everything into physical possession of precious metals, as the "inflation" there is limited to the amount of additional metal that mining can extract from the Earth. Paper money inflation is limited only by the number of bytes you can fit in your central banks' computers.

You still lose purchasing power in a relative sense over time, but limited to about a -1.5% per year for inflation-adjusted gold.

But really, it isn't that difficult to find an inflation-adjusted return better than -1.5%. Even a local family-owned restaurant could probably manage to eke out +0.1% or better just by hiring a part-time professional food-service manager to overhaul the formerly ad-hoc business strategy of mom and pop.

The problem is that many large investors don't even want to bother with thousands of small businesses, because you need to invest in a lot to average out their risk factors, and each of them would require a lot of individual attention to become more profitable. Large-scale investors don't even want to deal with just a single chain restaurant brand like Olive Garden or KFC, so they buy Darden or Yum! instead, because food service is such a low-margin sector overall that you literally need thousands of restaurants in your portfolio in order to be a worthwhile investment to someone that is hands-off.

Small business discovers it is more difficult to find investors with both the money to burn and the time to spend babysitting a relatively small investment. VCs don't want to invest $100k in a small business, restructure it, and then get $200k of value back; they want to invest $10M in a small business, restructure it, and get $100M back. Even if you could somehow bundle up all the locally owned single-location restaurants in the US, divide them up into grades and classes, and resell to investors, it would still be an unpopular place to park money. But if you could instead convince all those restaurants to take out small business loans, and you resell those, you're suddenly rolling in money. Lending is just a better, safer business to invest in than small-time food service.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by usaar333 on Monday February 15, 2016 @02:33PM (#11105363)
This can only become a systemtic concern if the growth of money and velocity exceeds GDP growth. In such a case, you would expect inflation (or huge asset bubbles) and relatively there is little in the US.

Real estate prices are well in historical norms compared to rents (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/11/daily-c...)

By what measure are stocks overbought? If we blindly look at earnings, stocks have an earnings yield of about 3% over a 10 year Treasury note, well within accepted ranges (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/equityriskpremium.asp)

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by dwiel on Monday February 15, 2016 @01:10PM (#11104884)
Could you give more detail about how capital gains taxed at a lower percentage than salary/profit has far-reaching consequences?
Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by zo1 on Monday February 15, 2016 @05:13PM (#11106450)
Well, it simply makes people favour capital gain/growth over other sources of income.

So, for example, CEO's would prefer their compensation in stocks rather than getting a salary.

It contributes to skew in terms of buying property or capital that'll "appreciate" or get speculated on. Rather than investing in creating a business that'll pay dividends.

Most investment these days is speculation, or the expectation of "increase" in the capital value of the investment. Dividends are practically non-existent, and are a tiny fraction of the "return" you get simple from increased capital value. This, I would argue, gives companies/organizations/corporations the wrong signal. It tells them to optimize for "capital growth" of the stock, because that's what investors want/expect. So that means pumping profits back into the company itself (which requires reducing dividends to token amounts) and aiming for "growth".

To be honest, it'd be difficult to quantify exactly how much the different tax-rates skew the markets. And you have to take it along with the rest of the market distortions. E.g. Retirement annuity tax benefits, or property-ownership tax benefits.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by seletz on Monday February 15, 2016 @11:52AM (#11104331)
> ... (except North Dakota and Iran) ...

And Norway, and Russia, and probably others.

The economy in Norway looks pretty bad right now. And Russia is having very bad times right now I believe.

At least in Norway it's because the oil price is way to low for them -- I heard that they break-even at $60 or $70 per barrel. That's pretty bad if practically the whole economy is based on oil.

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by zaroth on Monday February 15, 2016 @02:47PM (#11105452)
Norway is near the high end with cost of production at $36.10 / barrel.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/the-cost-to-produce...

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by effie on Monday February 15, 2016 @02:32PM (#11105360)
Not whole economy is based on oil. It makes 30% of revenue and 50% of exports.

https://www.regjeringen.no/no/aktuelt/the-norwegian-experien...

Re:Wherever oil goes, the stock market goes by dforrestwilson1 on Monday February 15, 2016 @03:18PM (#11105634)
50% of exports is pretty bad in a world where you need/want things like iPhones and don't make them yourself. We're all very connected at this point.