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Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Avernar on Saturday February 13, 2016 @11:39PM (#11097160)
I personally prefer base 2 units for file size. A 2GB file will take 2GB of memory when I load it in. Hard drive page sizes are also base two, 512 bytes for most drives and 4096 bytes (4K) for newer large capacity drives.

I also prefer base 2 for file transfer speeds just so it matches the file size convention. Fortunately most programs either default to base 2 or let you chose in the preferences.

Network line speeds are in base 10 (100Mbit ethernet is actually 100,000,000 bits/s) but there so much protocol overhead and other factors that comparing transfer speeds and line speeds is moot in most situations.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by brucedawson on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:15AM (#11097346)
You may be the first commenter who has actually given a reason for preferring base 2 units for file sizes. I'm not sure it justifies exposing base-2 sizes to non-geek consumers, but it is a valid reason.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by qb45 on Sunday February 14, 2016 @02:35PM (#11099620)
Be careful, this may equally well be a reason to advertise RAM sticks as having 8.589GB capacity :)
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by mehrdada on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:56PM (#11099458)
I'm not sure why "non-geek customers" should care about files or file sizes anymore.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by zeta0134 on Sunday February 14, 2016 @02:36PM (#11099622)
They really shouldn't; I work in IT, and typically describe file sizes to my clients using the metric prefixes; if they're curious I'll explain the difference (1000 is actually 1024 at each level) but the difference is usually negligible, and modern operating systems round the difference away when displaying the simplified sizes to the user.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Avernar on Sunday February 14, 2016 @08:09PM (#11100918)
I grew up with computers so tinking binary is not an issue for me. Storage capacity has always been wierd. A 1.44MB floppy actually has 2,880 512byte sectors. Base 2 and base 10 in the same measurement!
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Flimm on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:06PM (#11099744)
Using base-2 units is fine by me as long as you use the KiB MiB notation so I can immediately understand that you're using base-2.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by kazinator on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:33PM (#11099864)
"Kibi" and "Mebi" is moron speak. A kilobyte is 1024, a megabyte is 10241024, and a gigabyte is 10241024*1024. Period.

Anyone who is using base 10 is simply wrong.

Or lying to sell you a smaller storage unit.

Whatever confusion there exists, it was created by dishonest mass storage manufacturers. Prior to 1990-something, there was no confusion. As larger and larger storage devices became available on the mass consumer market, the sneaky bastards at Seagate, Quantum et al started to use base 10 to make their products appear more capacious.

The solution for that is to simply take back the kilobyte.

Possibly, legislation could help: make it unlawful for a storage device which holds 100000000000 bytes to be called a gigabyte device.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by erikpukinskis on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:40PM (#11099896)
Of course that's historically true. The point is it doesn't make sense so it should be changed. Kilo means 1,000 for every unit of measure except bytes. Mega means 1,000,000 for every unit of measure except bytes.

It doesn't even make sense... 1024 isn't a base two number, it's a base 10 number! If you really wanted to represent 1024 bytes in base 2, it would be 1000000000 bytes. Kibi and Mebi are not moron speak, they are the correct term for these quantities in base 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix

Using a base 10 prefix for a base 2 number is just historical weirdness. There's no sensical formal framework in which it fits with other uses of these prefixes. It's good to try to preserve old standards wherever possible. No need to reinvent the wheel. But in the long term in computer science we are trying to get to a world where ideas make sense together and form an easy to understand system. In the long term it's better if people don't have to learn this arcane idea that prefixes are base-10 everywhere except digital storage.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by s_tec on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:52PM (#11099946)
The "kilo", "mega", and "giga" prefixes are part of the SI system of units. They have been around far longer than computers, and are all defined in terms of base 10. A "megawatt" is one million Watts, and has been for over a century. These units don't belong to the computer industry, and computer people can't define them to mean something else just because "byte" is the next word.

If you want to insist that 1KB is 1024 bytes, then you aren't talking about real "kilos", you are talking about fake, computer-nerd "kilos". Stealing these units was wrong, and should have never happened in the first place. The SI isn't being moronic in introducing KiB, MiB, and friends, it's just asking us to return what we've stolen.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by kazinator on Sunday February 14, 2016 @04:34PM (#11100102)
computer people can't define them to mean something else

Well, the "computer people" did in fact do that, through natural language extension, which is often irregular and inconsistent.

It is this committee-designed "kibi", "mebi" and "gibi" which are prescriptive. And for that reason they are broadly rejected in the industry.

"Mega" is just a foreign prefix that can flexibly serve any purpose you want, just like a Greek letter in mathematics.

Just like the Greek λ can be "anonymous function", "eigenvalue", or "air/fuel ratio", the Latin "mega-" can be 1000000 or 1048576.

Nobody had any problem with this whatsoever, until storage manufacturers started lying in order to sell you a 781 Mb drive as 800 Mb.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by gdwatson on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:47PM (#11099920)
I like to mock the drive-maker's kilobyte too, but in their defense the tradition is older than standardized byte and word sizes. There was a time when drive sizes were measured in bits, and they naturally used SI prefixes for those -- nobody has bit-addressable memory.

That said, they aren't measuring them in bits any more, and using gigabyte in the SI way is definitely misleading.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by soneil on Sunday February 14, 2016 @07:14PM (#11100709)
> Possibly, legislation could help: make it unlawful for a storage device which holds 100000000000 bytes to be called a gigabyte device.

Even tapes, which along with every other "piece of string" device, have been base10 since before this cp/m / *dos mistake existed?

Why should they now be forced to be wrong?

(also, be careful what you ask for. If this were to be legislated, it'd be perfectly logical for them to fall inline with NIST - who don't agree with you on this one)

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by brucedawson on Sunday February 14, 2016 @05:56PM (#11100403)
> Anyone who is using base 10 is simply wrong.

You can say that, but that doesn't make it true, or reasonable. The facts on the ground are that OSX and drive manufacturers use base-10 MB/GB.

And, as I point out in the article, CPU frequencies, GPU frequencies, thumb drive capacities, and hard drive capacities are all actually base 10, so it's not like base 10 is going to go away.

Why should the capacity of memory chips affect how we describe file sizes and drive sizes? Please explain?

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by kazinator on Sunday February 14, 2016 @06:56PM (#11100639)
Frequencies are irrelevant. Yes, frequencies are base 10 all the way back to the dawn of RF in early radio before electronic computing. So what?

Nobody wants base 10 to go away. Just away from the prefixes in kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte!

"Giga" and "mega" do not mean exactly a million or billion; they are the root of words like "megalomania" and "gigantic".

Mega: From Ancient Greek μέγας ‎(mégas, “great, large, mighty”), from Proto-Indo-European meǵh₂s ‎(“great”). Cognate with Latin magnus, and with Germanic words: Gothic 𐌼𐌹𐌺𐌹𐌻𐍃 ‎(mikils), Old English micel, Middle English muchel, English much, Old High German mihhil, Old Norse mikill, Danish meget.* [Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mega-]

Giga: From Ancient Greek γίγας ‎(gígas, “giant”); cognate to giant. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/giga-]

Nothing about a million or billion!

Kilo is the one that means one thousand, from Greek. (χίλιοι / khílioi).

> Why should the capacity of memory chips affect how we describe file sizes and drive sizes?

So that, for example, a gigabyte of swap space corresponds exactly to a gigabyte of RAM. Doh? Who wants the description of size to change when data is moved between RAM and disk?

Speaking of "memory chips", flash storage is memory chips too. We should use the same units for memory chips that we use for ... memory chips.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Avernar on Sunday February 14, 2016 @08:17PM (#11100949)
> Frequencies are irrelevant.

No they're not. They're very relavent for anything dealing with networkig and communications.

I recently programmed an atmega chip for a homebrew project and the frequency of the SPI bus was very relavent.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by kazinator on Monday February 15, 2016 @12:29AM (#11101675)
They are not relevant to measures of information storage. A megahertz is as irrelevant in this debate as a centimeter, or kilopascal --- except to the extent that it bolsters the argument that mega means million in all kinds of units, which nobody is disputing.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Avernar on Sunday February 14, 2016 @08:14PM (#11100936)
> thumb drive capacities

I don't recall ever seeing a thumb drive advertised base 10. Have you seen base 10 for thumb drives often?

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by brucedawson on Monday February 15, 2016 @06:39PM (#11106914)
I have never seen a thumb drive advertised using anything other than base 10. You have probably assumed that since thumb drives and SD cards typically have capacities of 8/16/32/64 GB that the GB are actually GiB. But that assumption is wrong.

Check out the actual capacity. As I mentioned in the blog post, every flash drive and SD card that I have checked has used the base-10 GB. The extra capacity is there, but it is kept in reserve for bad blocks and headroom needed for efficient use of flash. It is entirely invisible outside of the flash drive.

Base 10 is far more prevalent in computing than most computer experts realize.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by Avernar on Sunday February 14, 2016 @08:21PM (#11100959)
Using the ibi/ebi notation is fine when it is written, especially when you have base 2 and 10 in the same document.

Speaking it however makes you sound like you have a speach impediment and non geeks will think your're a moron. You can deduce the base of the unit from context most of the time and when you can't, unlike when reading, I can ask you for clarification right away.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by soneil on Sunday February 14, 2016 @06:25AM (#11097872)
I always find this to be fascinating logic. Where else in computing is it perfectly normal to hear "I prefer to be wrong"?
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by alextgordon on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:23PM (#11099284)
I hereby define 1 megawatt to equal 7^7 watts, because I find that more convenient. Any light bulbs not sold in base 7 units are part of a conspiracy by light bulb manufacturers.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by thescriptkiddie on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:29PM (#11099321)
How is this wrong?
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by garrettgrimsley on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:43PM (#11099394)
Sticking with the GB example: GB is the SI unit symbol for gigabyte. The SI prefix giga denotes 1000³. The proper way to denote a drive size in terms of 1024³ bytes would be gibibytes, or GiB.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by andromeduck on Sunday February 14, 2016 @03:34PM (#11099876)
The byte notation doesn't make any sense to me if you're using SI. It's kind of like saying Giga Inches or KiloCM, just seems wrong
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by khedoros on Sunday February 14, 2016 @04:37PM (#11100115)
I'd consider a byte to be like a mole: it's the base unit that we actually use, and it's proper to apply an SI prefix to, but it's defined as a specific multiple of a smaller unit (8 bits vs 6.02 * 10^^23 particles).

"Giga inches" sounds wrong for two reasons: first, that larger distances like that are customarily expressed in units more suited to their scale, and second, that that measurement system generally doesn't use SI-style prefixes.

"KiloCM" sounds wrong because you're applying two SI prefixes to one unit and using the wrong capitalization for both "centi" and "meter". kcm could technically be represented by the "dam" unit, although it's more common to show things in that scale just as meters.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by brucedawson on Monday February 15, 2016 @06:43PM (#11106926)
KiloCM does sound wrong, but it is interesting that we happily say "1,000 km", when we could say "1 Gm". Fashion and familiarity in that case.

I need to remember to say "it's 3.8 Gm from Seattle to New York".

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by andromeduck on Sunday February 14, 2016 @06:48PM (#11100610)
Well KiloMol is pretty weird too.

IDK,I just think going with bits is neater.

Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by m6w6 on Sunday February 14, 2016 @01:46PM (#11099407)
Because a 2GB file will use 2GB of memory and a 2GiB file will use 2GiB of memory, but a 2GB file will not use 2GiB of memory, just because memory size is usually represented in base-2. It's all about nomenclature.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by thescriptkiddie on Sunday February 14, 2016 @09:15PM (#11101143)
Oh. Well that's a Microsoft problem, really. Most free software has been using the correct abbreviation for base 2 (KiB not KB) for some time now. Further, the annoying habit of using base 10 for line speeds and disk space is finally dying. For example, if Deluge tells me that I'm downloading a 4 GiB file at 4 MiB/s, I know it will finish in 1024 seconds and take up 4 GiB either on disk or in memory.
Re:Base Ten for Almost Everything by soneil on Sunday February 14, 2016 @05:46PM (#11100366)
Because frankly, opinions and standards are different things. Linespeed is base10, has always been base10, predating harddrives, or computers. So networks, pretty much the only thing we all have in common, are base10. Modems are base10 (14.4k is 14400 baud, not 14745). Almost everything is base10. It's not opinion. It .. is.

Memory is base2 because that's how we address arrays. It's the odd one out. Preferring to believe otherwise just doesn't seem very geek to me.