Honestly, just from personal experience, the profession seems to be marginally above chiropractors in legitimacy. Diagnosis and treatment is inconsistent and arbitrary - varying widely from practitioner to practitioner. Treatments are prescribed with "guess and check" methodologies. Longitudinal effects of many treatments aren't even known and results of many which have been eventually studied aren't good.
I recognize a lot of people have net positive experiences but the profession and pharmaceutical industry surrounding it 'needs improvement'.
When you write "needs improvement" I think "need a complete overhaul" would be better.
Other people in this thread have already mentioned the drugging of children but I'd like to stress something else.
You compare psychiatrists to chiropractors as far as legitimacy is concerned, but there is a very big difference.
No one can force someone to see a chiropractor and that chiropractor can't strip you of every civil right without an accusation or a trial based on his assessment.
A psychiatrist can and does that on a regular basis.
This is a huge difference.
So yes, the profession is BS but I would say the pendulum has swung a bit too far based on the help we were asking for and didn't get.
A hard balance for sure.
How did the situation develop?
What happened to your friend?
Sucks to be American, I guess. Here we have human rights laws which protect people with mental illness.
http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Detention_mental_health...
Don't go there. The situation is almost global with a few legal nuances that barely have any practical impact.
Since you're mentioning the ECHR, have a look at the German man that was involuntarily committed and drugged for years just because he said his wife was engaged in a large financial fraud.
Spoiler: she really was.
Protections in the UK for mental illness are reasonably strong. (Much worse for people with learning disability, but psychiatrists tend not to be involved so much in the worst abuses there.)
"AIDS? Sucks to be African, I guess. Here we use protection."
Edit:
OK. I've read your Bio (stating that you only follow mental health related handles) and I've also read you twitter feed. It reads like a propaganda piece. It would be funny were it not for the seriousness of the subject.
You are anything but unbiased and have a large interest in maintaining the status quo therefore the baseless "ignorant" insult.
I would be TERRIFIED if psychological checkups became routine, and see that as near-dystopian as some aspects of brave new world. For so many people (I say this now being married to a psychologist of my own) including myself are diagnosed with disorders of extremely variable diagnostic validity at extremely young ages (beyond even what the DSM, with its already spotty contents, would recommend) and then medicated past functionality and/or told we have something wrong with us.
What would have helped me? If instead of being told "you need these pills to fix you" someone told me that "normal is a spectrum", and people even with behaviors we love to tag with fancy names and try and treat can learn to control them and live perfectly normal lives without drastic intervention.
Don't take this as a "we should ignore psychological disorders", it's not the intent at all. Take it as a, I've seen the culture that arises out of LOOKING for mental issues rather than encouraging growth and maturation, and I'd rather resort to a psychological approach as we do with antibiotics, _when needed and after extensive exploration of other options_, lest we unconsciously do ourselves further disservice. Although I have a different takeaway than you though, I'd echo the same guiding thought, "don't assume he or she is lazy or doesn't want to succeed" but would append "or assume they are broken."
Which's another way of saying 'it is nice to meet people who are really good at what they do and can happen to help you'.
The flip-side is what you're describing - that most people are not that good at what they do and ultimately - it is usually a frustrating and tedious process of poking in the dark until something works.
For psychological issues it's often a slew of things and having one person make a significant difference in your life is a little miracle.
The thing I like that you mentioned is that you trained yourself out of behaviours that you found to be counter-productive. Which's largely my point - until one takes responsibility for the problems they're facing and stops hoping for an easy fix, it is unlikely to work out in the longterm and I don't know that a psychologist is capable of making somebody a life-long learner if you're not one to begin with.
'When a student is ready, a teacher appears' :)
> until one takes responsibility for the problems they're facing and stops hoping for an easy fix...
You have just delivered a more eloquently articulated version of the "be a man and suck it up" mentality that does way more harm than good. This sort of reductionist hand waving does not result in useful or practical advice. I suspect it is coming from your limited experience with these issues.
EDIT: I also find it gross that you consider getting help from a psychologist an attempt to find a "easy fix". As if sufferers don't put in A LOT of additional effort themselves...
You took my message of how dealing with psychological issues is like poking at random in the dark, which's my way of saying these things are very tricky, and turned it into how I'm marginalizing people with difficulties.
I don't know if you yourself are aware but I'll point it out for others - some people will hear 10 paragraphs of encouragement, find 1 sentence that they have a mild reaction to and only focus on that.
I've done it myself when I was younger (and nowadays too every now and again :)) - I'd come into a discussion emotionally charged and sure enough, whatever mild version of not seeing eye to eye popped up, I was there to get upset about it.
I was perpetually upset with how 'everyone else is dumb' at the time. In reality, I was just young and lacked perspective, which made me quite annoying to be around, which resulted in difficulties with making friends, and on and on.
Which's my way of saying hey, I'm actually well versed in difficulties or else I wouldn't be talking about them.
One tip I'd give that I wish someone gave me (they probably did and I didn't listen :)) is to cease thinking others ought to act a certain way. They don't have to anything and they won't. You have to adjust if you don't want to live the rest of your life getting upset at others. The world isn't going to adjust for you, unless you can isolate yourself into a bubble where people act a way you deem acceptable and never leave.
That's usually people just being alone, which sucks if you're being honest with yourself.
...followed by a 4 paragraph ad hominem (I'm young and lonely is your implication?) explaining why you think this.
Wouldn't it have been more productive to reiterate what you think I missed? Because I still have no clue what you're talking about.
As someone who struggled with a lot of mental illness growing up, and had many friends who did as well, I disagree with your interpretation of this phrase.
I've frequently said to some of my friends who are caught in a vicious cycle of depression or dependence: You can't help someone who doesn't want help.
Mental illness finds mental illness. Especially with kids. This is good and bad. It helps you to find support, but it also encourages a vicious cycle where each person is enabling each other. Tumblr is a great example of this. But when one person is trying so desperately to help someone in a bad spot, that refuses help, there's nothing you can do. And beating your head against a brick wall has never helped anyone.
Addiction has long been known to work the same way: You can't stop an addict from getting drugs, you can only try to help them stay clean when they make the choice to.
What I take offense at is when "seeking medical treatment" is so tightly coupled with "seeking an easy fix". The two concepts are orthogonal.
Anecdotal, but the amount of courage it took to finally seek medical treatment made it the toughest fix I ever sought out. The pressure to try do anything else BUT THAT made it difficult to think critically about the issue. I was also very real concern about embarrassing my parents.
For me, seeing a doctor was ultimate last line of treatment after years of shitty self-help books and introspection; never truly knowing what exactly was wrong. Luckily, it has bee most effective.
Right... like I said, it takes A LOT of effort on the suffers part. It's none of you business, but I take an SSRI and do cognitive behavioral therapy for OCD. The behavioral therapy is for learning and developing good habits and the medication helps prevent intrusive and obsessive thoughts. Nobody is "thinking for me" (It saddens me that this is the prejudice you have). These professionals help me help myself, by giving me tools, information, and guidelines I would not have access to otherwise.
A college-level course on object oriented programming isn't going to magically make you a good Java developer, but it may help you learn in a more sophisticated way than a self-taught curriculum. Either way, you wouldn't shame someone for "not helping themselves" or "taking the easy way out" by enrolling in such a course.
As I said, I don't think that is possible.
I only meant to counter-point your point:
>it's not as simple as "training yourself" out of it.
In some sense, it is that simple, as that is really the only base tool that one can access (probably why CBT is so helpful). That is, no one else can 'train you out of it'; they might be able to show you the door, but you have to walk through it.
> (probably why CBT is so helpful)
I'd say the medication is more helpful, to be honest. BTW, "that's probably why CBT is so helpful" does not follow from "training yourself is the only base tool that one can access". CBT is not at all training yourself. It's almost literally the opposite.
Before that I was poking in the dark alone (no pun intended) and it felt like going in circles. I kept daily journals sporadically in Evernote over a few years and after going through them recently I realized how I kept facing the same seemingly unsolvable problems.
I'm sorry about what happened to you. That being said, I don't think your anecdote is representative of the typical result of mental health care. Surely we would have less school shootings and smaller prison populations if we ended the fear mongering and stigmas associated with mental health and had more routine psychological evaluations.
For the record, 2nd grade is, IMO, way too young to start any kind of stimulant. I don't have ADD, but I do know "ADD/ADHD denial" can be the gateway drug for thinking other mental health acronyms are bullshit too.
It is like saying if we gave each homeless person money, we'd fix homelessness.
Now just replace homelessness with psychological issues and money with psychologist.
No, the underlying reasons I gave are factual.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21582535-costly-...
You are not acting in good faith.
In no way did it address the issue.
Stop poisoning the discussion with unrelated sources that in no way support your points.
People that read your comment might be under the impression that the article had any relevance. It didn't in any way.
Pointing that your sources in no way support your views is not trolling. You're just using ad hominem again in order to not be challenged.
It won't work. Give it up.
This is a basic rebuttal from people like you.
It's not bad practitioners, the field is inherently subjective and without scientific merit while pretending to be otherwise.
You feel it helped you. Great, happy for you! Some people think astrology is a very good and positive influence in their lives. Great for them too.
Regardless of that, my life shouldn't be ruled by pseudo-science and I really resent that these people get to strip anyone of their civil rights based on simply their opinions and nothing else.
Thankfully I've never had any (positive or negative) encounter with psychiatry and neither has anyone I like so unlike you, I'm not biased.
Your comment is a very common technique which consists in dismissing reasonable criticism by implying that the commenter is somewhat broken.
In reality you are the one that is broken by your own admission. You're incapable of living your life without resorting to pseudo-scientific fields.
100 or 200 years ago you would be here defending your exorcist and how without his benevolent influence you would be unable to live a decent life.
wow.
> pseudo-scientific
It's a young scientific field that has been hurt by cultural distrust and misinformation. It hasn't helped that people like you have been spreading FUD. The efficacy for SSRI's treating OCD is about 50%. There is on going research for better second line treatments. I'm lucky in that it's been very effective for me.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181958/
EDIT: You lost all legitimacy when you called me "broken". You're disgusting and I'm done responding to you.
It has been hurt by its own history of systemic and deliberate abuse. No need for misinformation unlike what you're engaging with your proselytizing here.
In other words, it's very easy to develop psychological hypochondria. Perhaps it's because of the lack of visibility of the condition.
Agreed. Everyone should have a mental health professional. I think a huge step to reduce the stigma would be for a US president to mention his own therapist, similar to how Bush mentioned his colonoscopy. This needs to be brought out into the open.
What about an astrologer, do I need my own astrologer also?
mental health professionals have very little to do with other specialties. None of those diagnosis are objectively based on hard data.
As they stand they're unfounded speculation and you pressing for general testing is very scary and either ignorant or just downright malevolent.
I think it's fine people can seek them out - people can subjectively evaluate whether the particular professional they're seeing is improving their life or not, and if their life subjectively feels better, then the service the mental health professional is providing is definitely of value.
You're right, we don't know enough about what goes on in our minds to force it down everybody, and at the same time, people can be aware of their own selves, and I think we have to be cautious in describing how people see themselves and whether a mental professional is improving their lives, even if without hard data, as unfounded speculation.
I do strongly agree with you that we need to reduce stigma I'm helping my local "health community" (Public Health (part of county council) Clinical Commissioning Group (part of the NHS, who buy services) and my local MH trust) to tackle stigma.
I can't blame my parents obviously, they are amazing people with their own problems and probably in the 99th percentile when it comes to what people wish for in a good parent. It's just that they had the same mindset as many people of their generation. Psychology/Medication are dismissed or not even thought of as a solution. My mom had a difficult childhood and after starting to experience night terrors in her early 50s she went to seek help and the transformation has been nothing short of amazing.
As for my own difficulties, from 16 to 25 years old my philosophy for dealing with my problems and growing was to take time whenever I could for introspection. Even if things in my life weren't going as I wanted them to go, one thing that could keep me moving forward was bettering myself by reflecting on my actions and thoughts. Meanwhile I was unknowingly crippled by a growing anxiety when it came to my studies and I wasn't the best at sharing what I felt either.
I had always been considered exceptionally bright and gifted and I absolutely loved learning but slowly it seemed to get harder and harder to stay on track when doing school work. The subject matter was easy but actually getting myself to start do to the work was like having to climb a mountain before opening your books. My brain was tired before I ever started. I kept taking full time semesters at university and dropping half my classes because I couldn't keep up. The more this dragged on, the worse I felt about it.
Finally I went to see my doctor and explained how I felt. I told him my brain felt like a steam locomotive and that it took an immense effort to get it moving. He was extremely helpful and made me try Methylphenidate to start. It was like having the fog cleared from my brain, suddenly I felt as I had felt all of my childhood. I was excited to learn, to work and even to wake up in the morning knowing the kind of productive days I could have. Last semester was the first time in years that I've completed a full time course load (with a 4.0 gpa, a nice improvement is an understatement).
"guilt-ridden academic life" is the right way to describe it. I felt horrible about it but I couldn't get myself to quit trying even without knowing what exactly was holding me back. I felt the heartbreak too and actual tears of joy as the feeling of saudade went away and I realized I had "found" my old self again.
This dragged on way more than I thought it would but overall I'm happy knowing that I will be sensitized to how mental health problems can affect your life and your overall happiness. Hopefully if my (future) child is experiencing difficulties, I'll be able to identify it and get them the help they need.
Edit: I'd just like to add that I initially felt uncomfortable with the idea of medication. Why? Because so many students nowadays abuse prescription medication without having symptoms and it made me feel like I was lying to myself about needing it and that I was actually just not working hard enough.
That describes especially well! A good hangover tends to help me for a day or two, but generally its a steam engine in fog that's hard to get moving.
Before I saw these people, I just believed they would help. I had no idea their were no magic pills. In fact, I believe they have pills that were studied so terribly, they should be pulled of the market.
Your problems with anxiety popped off the page. I too have battled crippling anxiety after a breakdown in grad school. You will eventually find a Psychiatrist to prescribe benzodiazepines(usually a benzo with a long half life). Yes, it works at first, but is addictive. And--that doctor will want to see you for office visits. See today, very few Psychiatrists do any real therapy. They just basically prescribe, and drag patients on for office visits. Legally they only need to see you once a year, but how are they going to make a living? Oh, it's always for your benefit though, and you will be paying for these visits. In essence, you become a hostage to these drugs.
Real therapy? Exactly what is real therapy. I have no clue. I went. I cried. I paid. I felt just as bad afterwards. When they did offer advice it was just not right, or right for a previous generation. (And yes, I tried CBT.)
Back to Psychiatrists, they don't do therapy, unless you have money. They basically see two to four patients an hour, and it basically just to charge for an office visit, to refill the medications they prescribe. Medications that have a huge placebo component. Medications that are addictive. Yes, it's quite a racket.
Psychologists are a bit different. They can't prescribe. They can only offer talk therapy. Yes, some are very nice, and well meaning. The problem, I found, is they didn't help me in the slightest. Oh, that's my fault! I was only in therapy for one year, 2x a week, at $65 a visit. I am ashamed how I came up with that money, but thought Therapy would save my life.
I could yak, on and on, but it's one thing you should probally experience first hand. It's kinda like test driving a car an older sports car. Some people will enjoy the experience. Others will wonder what all the fuss is all about. Bad analogy--just tired!
I'm not giving advice. I'm just dissalusioned with the system. I've been on a prescribed, addictive drug for years. I'm trying to get off, but don't want to push it. Basically, I don't know how healthy I am. I don't want to die in a crappy detox, praying to a higher power, because I can't find a psychiatrist/doctor to refill my prescriptions. I have a feeling my doctor is getting ready to retire. I don't want to start over with a new psychiatrist who's dragging me on for an office visit every eight weeks, and charging me Whatever he/she wants. See, I'm a different person than I was years ago. I don't have the same fears/problems. I know what most psychiatrists are about to say before they say it. I don't have any big questions that need an answer. I don't need to cry. I just need my prescriptions refilled. That's it.
As to "Let's look into getting you off these medications?" If you're young, and healthy it's fine! If older--it's a crap shoot. Some of the compassionate doctors will taper you off the prescribed drugs, but you have bathed your brain in a medication for years. What do you think the outcome will be?
> I was only in therapy for one year, 2x a week, at $65 a visit
That's 6760$ for one year. It's a significant amount for what is essentially a placebo at best.
Should have traveled or done something you fancy. It would have been a better usage for that amount.
As for your medications, I feel really sorry that you fell victim to this scam. It's not entirely your fault, these are predators and they took advantage of your fragility.
Whatever you do, please don't go cold turkey. It could be very dangerous.
Start decreasing the dosage gradually but prepare to feel really bad.
Even if you do not have anxiety, major depression, or other disorder - I think basic psychological therapy is something almost anyone can benefit from. We like to think friends and family are all we need for help during a rough time or troubling period, but, no matter how well intentioned they might be, they are usually the least qualified to help you. It's important to have a professional to talk to in these situations. With children this is even more so.
Psychiatrists can see the red-flags that others often ignore, or brush off as personality quirks. This was the case with me for long time. I would have had a better academic life if the "ADD is bullshit" meme never happened. For me, this prevalent mentality prevented me from receiving the health-care I needed, especially with regards to my very private (and personally shameful) crippling anxiety. I hope one day basic psychological check ups for children become as routine as a dentist visits. There are so many benefits to keeping tabs on your mental health and the only downside is the current social stigma.
If your child is acting up, consistently has trouble with areas such as organization, or is all over the place with grades - please don't assume he or she is lazy or doesn't want to succeed. Help them by taking them to someone who can see things you cannot, and possibly find an easily solvable underlying problem.