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Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pmontra on Monday January 25, 2016 @09:54AM (#10967453)
Other kind of considerations: I'll be buying paper books until

1) I can send an ebook as a gift. AFAIK Amazon allows that only in the USA.

2) I can backup my ebooks and move them to other readers I own.

I suspect that #1 and #2 are related, technically and in the business model.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by adwf on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:01AM (#10967490)
3) Loaning books. I frequently give family and friends print books that I've recently read. Currently Amazon's loan functionality is very poor (only once per book, must be read within 14 days).

This leads me to buying books twice, first as an ebook and second in print to loan. Whilst publishers may well like this, it's scummy behaviour if they do and scummy business practices always come back and bite you eventually.

Or alternatively I never buy the ebook because I want the print book to loan, but the print is too expensive so I never buy either...

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by steveeq1 on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:10AM (#10967550)
From a publisher's point of view, you're infringing on their intellectual property. To them, it's no different than simply pirating the book out of piratebay since they'll never see the revenue from it.

I think "case based reasoning" is going on. We have no problems loaning books out to friends because we always have. But pirating a copy is considered unethical, even though the net effect on the publisher is the same. One can argue that the former is slightly better because the both of us can't read it at the same time, but in my view we're just rationalizing.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by Piskvorrr on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:27AM (#10967654)
BAN PUBLIC LIBRARIES NOW!!! ;)
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by virmundi on Monday January 25, 2016 @03:00PM (#10969539)
The loan view was just an extension of private property. We can loan a chair because we lose access to it while loaned. With immaterial things like ebooks, we do not lose access while on loan.

That has always been the reasoning. Ebooks are not considered property. You are licensed a nontransferable copy of the book.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by steveeq1 on Monday January 25, 2016 @03:39PM (#10969767)
Yeah, I covered this:

> One can argue that the former is slightly better because the both of us can't read it at the same time, but in my view we're just rationalizing.

With books, most of us just lend books when we're done reading them. It's rare where both need to read at the same time, although (I guess) that can happen.

My greater point is that we, as a society, are perfectly comfortable lending books out to friends or having public libraries simply because we've grown up doing it that way. In an alternative universe, if public libraries or paper books were invented today, most people (especially intellectual property lawyers) would view it as a form of intelletual property theft and consider those things "morally wrong". Not that I'm saying that's right or wrong, it's just that people have a tendency to understand the present in terms of the past (case-based reasoning).

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pjmlp on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:04AM (#10967506)
Easy, there are lots of online bookstores selling DRM free ebooks.

One just needs to stay honest and don't spread those ebooks around.

I seldom buy anything from Amazon, although I own a Kindle.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pmontra on Monday January 25, 2016 @11:43AM (#10968162)
Would you mind sharing the links of those stores? It would be a service to them and us. Thanks.
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pjmlp on Monday January 25, 2016 @01:31PM (#10968902)
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by j_s on Monday January 25, 2016 @03:52PM (#10969851)
And you can get a random one for free each day you visit https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning/
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pjmlp on Tuesday January 26, 2016 @01:36AM (#10972164)
Nice tip. Thanks!

Sorry can only up vote once.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by manaskarekar on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:02AM (#10967495)
Both these problems can mostly be solved, at least for technical books, by buying directly from the publisher.

I buy technical e-books from oreilly, informit, springer or nostarchpress.

They are more often than not, cheaper than amazon and you can download them in various formats, including but not limited to pdf.

Buying books for Kindle feels like you're renting them from Amazon.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by JoeAltmaier on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:11AM (#10967553)
I agree those are useful. But consider they are also hard(er) to do with paper books. Pack a paper book up in a box; write an address label; hike down to the Post office?

And backup? What does that even mean for a paper book? Photocopy? EBooks are in the cloud; you can never actually lose one forever. Just buy it again, which is very, very likely to be cheaper than photocopying a paper book.

Just saying.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by DanBC on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:30AM (#10967666)
> EBooks are in the cloud; you can never actually lose one forever. Just buy it again, which is very, very likely to be cheaper than photocopying a paper book.

In 2012 I bought some music in electronic format from Amazon. A bit later they introduced the Amazon music service. I looked in my purchased music section, and the music I'd bought in 2012 wasn't there, and if I lose the downloaded files it's not available to me unless I buy it again or the rights holders come to some agreement with Amazon.

It's possible that stuff will drop out of the cloud when the rights become impossible to work out. I'm not sure how likely that is with books, but it happens with films. The most well known is "Point Break", which now can't be shown in public by cinemas because no-one knows who owns the rights.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by JoeAltmaier on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:32AM (#10967685)
Books go out of print too - maybe the e-form is more reliable in that regard.

And sure we're not quite there yet - the entire library of congress isn't online yet. But we all imagine its going to end up there, no contest.

The real issue is, does e-book loss (losing rights) compare unfavorably with real book loss (loaned out and forgotten; burned or discarded; degraded to unusability)?

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by pmontra on Monday January 25, 2016 @01:39PM (#10968954)
Paper books and CDs are an expensive pain when you move to another home, plus they take space and make you spend money in bookshelves. I'd love to be able to zip all my books :-) At least I can't lose the right to read them (unless very bad things happen).

Loaned books and not returned: same thing with files if cloud service will ever let you do that and you can't make a copy for yourself. However they could let us set an automatic return date. That will solve the problem. The point is: why bother if they won't make money out of it? Pay a little fee to borrow or to lend?

Accidentally burned vs accidentally deleted: same thing. Only the ability of backing them up is going to save you. Or a cloud service unless we are ruling it out for the rights issue.

Degradation: hard to say. Ebooks haven't been around for enough time to say how many of them I could lose in the next years. However I still have files from the mid 90s so if one really cares about them it's probably safe to say that they won't be lost. I can probably read some cassettes and floppy disks from the early and mid 80s if I bother to switch on their original hw (and if it works). However it's a vastly larger pain than reading an old book on aged paper. My parents have some of those books from the early 20th century and we can read them. Obviously they might have thrown away other books and it won't be the case if those books were bits.

Still: without cloud services are we going to be able to read epub or mobi in a 100 years? And with cloud services how many books won't be available anymore by then because of policies, politics, commercial rights, censorship?

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by duaneb on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:18AM (#10967601)
> you can never actually lose one forever

unless ANYTHING happens to that part of the cloud. In which case, you've lost your entire collection forever.

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by JoeAltmaier on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:25AM (#10967638)
Books are all still in some cloud service somewhere. I can safely predict, the human race will never lose a book ever again. Barring an apocalypse.

And you can also have a fire at your house. Which is quite a bit more likely?

Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by duaneb on Monday January 25, 2016 @12:09PM (#10968352)
Sure, but your access to the books is (at least currently) highly restricted, legally. I'd say it's much more likely I'm going to have some issue with accessing my kindle books (who knows, maybe I break my kindle) than I am having a fire.
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by mogigoma on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:03AM (#10967499)
I agree, and deal with this by using a Kobo and purchasing books from DRM-free publishers such as No Starch Press. It's not ideal -- the hardware is lacking polish and the book selection is limited -- but it works.
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by yitchelle on Monday January 25, 2016 @10:18AM (#10967599)
for the same reason as the 2nd point above, I would only buy technical books in paper format. For the other books that I can read and then forget, I choose ebook. If I lose it, its not much of an issue.
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by panzagl on Monday January 25, 2016 @01:57PM (#10969088)
How do you backup your paper books?
Re:Are paper books really disappearing? by DrScump on Tuesday January 26, 2016 @12:11AM (#10971921)
Didn't you read Fahrenheit 451?