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Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by criley2 on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:00PM (#10912508)
Disagree entirely.

Twitter? No good way to monetize. Groupon? Failed to monetize effectively after virality faded and without a moat competitors did the same thing. Yelp? A web version of the BBB protection scheme whose profit comes from the shake down protection racket against small businesses, not from users. Zynga had no moat and other companies quickly did the same thing with much leaner overhead, like King and a dozen other cheap but profitable game makers. Box was just overvalued for what it is.

On the flip side, every time someone takes an Uber or rents a room on AirBnb, they pay the company.

As in, those companies accept money for every transaction and profit on them.

Twitter, box, groupon, yelp don't do that. And Dropbox doesn't and they aren't publicly traded and if they did sell stock it would probably be overvalued and shrink over time like Box.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by pyrrhotech on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:10PM (#10912583)
I'll concede that Uber and Airbnb business models are stronger than the others, but they are still massively overvalued based on near future growth prospects. Those two will probably succeed in the long run, but they still won't be good stock picks
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by sly_foxx on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:37PM (#10913151)
Agree. Airbnb's valuation is very close to eBay's. So, that means that it's expected that in the near future AirBnB will generate at least $2-3 billion in net profits per year. Actually, it would have to be more than that, because investors expect even higher valuation on IPO. Peter Thiel stated he thinks AirBnB will be $100+ billion company, which would imply he expects at least $7 billion after tax profits in the near future.

Let's compare eBay to AirBnB.

eBay incorporated in 1996, AirBnB in 2008. After 6 years of existing, eBay's revenue in 2002 was $1.21 billion[profitable]. AirBnB's revenue after 6 years is $400+ million[not profitable].

Now, eBay got that revenue+profits by 2002 when:

> (1) there were only few hundred million people online - 7x less than now. Slow internet connection, ugly websites, no mobile.

> (2) people were somewhat insecure about transacting online and paying was pain in the ass.

> (3) they were only popular in the US, UK, AU and had recently entered Germany.

Compare that to AirBnB, which after the same number of years operates in environment where:

> (1) there are over 3 billion people online.

> (2) payments online are very common(booking hotels pioneered by other companies) and easy.

> (3) says it operates in 190 countries, 20+ languages.

Even after all these advantages, they only got 1/3 of eBay's revenue in 2002 with the same current valuation.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by nl on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:18PM (#10913383)
AirBNBs revenue is over 1.2B, 340M per quarter. http://skift.com/2015/11/23/airbnb-revenue-now-larger-than-c...
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by sly_foxx on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:39PM (#10913491)
$340 was for Q3, which is when most people take vacations and doesn't reflect other quarters. The projection for 2015 was $800-900 million.

But, that is year 2015, which is 7th year since they incorporated and I was writing about first 6 years of existence.

For the record, eBay's revenue in 2003 (7th year of existence) was $2.2 billion.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by refurb on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:40PM (#10913168)
On the flip side, every time someone takes an Uber or rents a room on AirBnb, they pay the company.

I think the difference is that Uber and AirBnB's valuation assumes continue, explosive growth over the next decade.

Uber could slow and still grow at a decent rate and the valuation would plummet.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by askafriend on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:52PM (#10912877)
If Box was overvalued then Dropbox must just be fucked.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by Cookingboy on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:11PM (#10913345)
Box is probably a little undervalued since they are trading at only 3x their revenue, despite beating analyst expectation for every quarter since IPO. The rest of the cloud/SAAS sector are trading at about 8x-10x in comparison. Dropbox, on the other hand, is valued at 25-30x their revenue, so entirely different animal altogether.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by tracker1 on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:47PM (#10913211)
I think it comes down to funding, marketing, development and revenue models. Many companies succeed in funding, then effectively jump the shark in terms of marketing spend and try to massively scale their developer teams in order to increase feature churn, which has the opposite effect a lot of times, and then they've burned through all the cash before they can handle the scaling.

Other companies don't go full board, with more conservative growth in terms of features, but can scale more customers without the draw of huge marketing or in some cases smarter marketing. Viral-peer marketing works as long as your conversion out-paces your free sign-ups. I don't have any insights into Dropbox, but can say they're probably fine. There really isn't great competition in this space.. there's competition, but none of the cross-platform options are as good or at least not clearly better.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by blackaspen on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:30PM (#10912743)
Twitter's YoY revenue growth is pretty respectable. I don't think they've 'failed to monetize'. (User growth, now that's a different story...)
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by amelius on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:10PM (#10912581)
> On the flip side, every time someone takes an Uber or rents a room on AirBnb, they pay the company.

Yes, but Uber and AirBnB do not have (from a technical perspective) innovative products, nor strong lock-in businessmodels. Everybody could start a competitor. In fact, Uber faces a lot of competition already; see e.g. [1], [2].

[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/liyanchen/2015/09/09/uber-wants-...

[2] http://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-meets-its-match-in-france-1... (paywalled)

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by supster on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:20PM (#10912656)
Their lock-in is their network effects. Airbnb has a huge selection of locations in many major cities around the world. Uber has an incredible number of drivers and riders on the system globally at all times of the day. Competitors will have a very hard time replicating that.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by Naritai on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:17PM (#10913380)
Your comment would be true if it weren't possible to list on multiple sites/apps at the same time. Many studies have already shown that the majority of drivers in large markets (SF/NY/etc) keep multiple apps open, and accept fares from whichever one offers the (probable) best return. While Uber appears to be fighting this by modifying some policies, there's ultimately very little they can do to stop this.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by jacalata on Friday January 15, 2016 @11:21PM (#10914233)
They could easily stop it by calling drivers employees and forbidding them from working for someone else while on the clock, but its not important enough for them to do so.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by mylons on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:33PM (#10912780)
airbnb has a real problem: VRBO. VRBO is routinely cheaper than airbnb, has been around longer, and doesn't have the legal issues, and has the support of the baby boomers. Good luck, airbnb.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by tyre on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:59PM (#10912920)
This is the first time I've seen the argument that X company is in trouble because the baby boomers use the other platform.

AirBnb raised $1b last year, projecting 2015 revenues at $900m [0]. Until financials show otherwise, they appear to be doing just fine.

[0]: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-secret-math-of-airbnbs-24-bi...

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by mylons on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:18PM (#10913029)
$150M a year in losses. Sounds great! My parents generation, which maybe also has something to do with living in the midwest, has been using VRBO and it's affiliates longer than airbnb has existed outside of silicon valley, and are reluctant to change.

They're also the property owners right now, relative to the millennials.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by tyre on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:13PM (#10913359)
$150M is a large number, but so is $1b. At that burn rate they have over six years of runway.

It may be that for every $100M they spend on acquisition, they make $200M over three years in sales, in which case it would make sense to burn cash now to capture the market. They could also be going all LivingSocial: setting money on fire with no path to unicorn profitability.

Anyway, no real way to know without the inside financials.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by x0x0 on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:44PM (#10912829)
Have you ever tried to rent from VRBO? I did a couple years ago and have never been back.

Approx 30 calls, 6 or 7 responded, a couple of those hadn't kept their calendars up-to-date, and only 2 actually were available and matched the info on the site. I was doing my best to spend $6k on a ski vacation and vrbo just didn't want to cooperate. The whole thing was a giant waste of time.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by siquick on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:09PM (#10912970)
This was probably before the online booking platform was launched - you'd find a whole different experience now.

Would recommend using http://www.homeaway.com (parent company of VRBO) instead - has same inventory but better interface.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by mylons on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:19PM (#10913039)
I sure have. Take a look at Lake Tahoe's VRBO/homeaway listings. They're routinely cheaper on VRBO than airbnb for comparable properties, and it works fine.

People in tech just assume airbnb is better.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by prawn on Saturday January 16, 2016 @05:37AM (#10914945)
Yeah, I used VRBO in LA when everything on Airbnb was overpriced and rarely replying. Worked out well.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by exclusiv on Friday January 15, 2016 @09:49PM (#10913991)
VRBO and HomeAway tend to be better for higher-end properties. People that spend a lot of money want to talk to the owners prior to booking and VRBO/HomeAway facilitates that. People that own high end properties want to talk to the renters too. They also have custom rental agreements baked in to the booking process. I rent a 6BR and everyone wants to get a better deal. That's part of the dance. I tend to favor last minute / higher yield since I have a solid product and an automated home.

AirBnB prevents pre-booking contact because their model is different. They make money on bookings, mostly from the consumer. For HomeAway I pay them ~$1600/yr and get featured placement and no booking fees. That is actually a small marketing expense for my property so the consumer can actually pay quite a bit less by booking my property on VRBO instead of AirBnB which charges the consumer 6-12%.

AirBnB has the problem of being seen as the platform for renting shared space. I think they will do a good job branding as a place for entire home rentals but that may take some time with the older crowd. They have a good renter review system which doesn't exist on VRBO. They are prioritizing hosts that respond quickly because they know that in order to take real share from hotels/resorts and HomeAway/VRBO they will need to provide a better booking experience and also excel at last minute bookings. HA/VRBO doesn't have a lot of checks in place to ensure the consumer receives adequate service and this is mostly due to their chosen business model.

I don't know how this will shake out in full but as an owner, you should be on both. Expedia bought HomeAway so I think that is huge for them because they could launch a really compelling reward platform and provide owners more distribution. I would bet AirBnB would get scooped up by someone as well or finance a strategic acquisition of their own.

Once business travel falls to AirBnb/HA/VRBO due to incentivized rewards programs, hotels will be extremely scared, esp since most are franchises who are losing power. This hasn't happened yet. They're telling the story that AirBnB/VRBO has simply provided more room-nights that wouldn't have happened without them but I don't buy it.

Regardless, there is plenty of space for two heavyweights and I'm bullish on both.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by mrgordon on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:30PM (#10913104)
VRBO is actually starting to copy Airbnb's pricing model because they're losing. It has worse legal issues in many areas because it is outright short term rentals instead of hosted rentals. Additionally, the response rate and speed is much worse than Airbnb which is all that matters to most baby boomer users. My dad gets frustrated as soon as instant booking isn't available like a hotel room
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by foobarqux on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:30PM (#10913438)
AirBnB makes most of its money on non-hosted rentals.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by mylons on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:45PM (#10913204)
what's the pricing model they're copying, exactly? you mean the pricing model that airbnb copied from existing hotel chains (variable pricing?). very unique and innovative.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by puranjay on Saturday January 16, 2016 @01:49AM (#10914547)
You have to ask yourself: how indispensable are these companies?

People can live without Groupon. It hasn't changed habits fundamentally.

Uber and Airbnb, on the other hand, have changed consumers' habits.

If you can make something a habit, you're going to win (see: cigarette companies)

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by Cookingboy on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:08PM (#10913326)
Just saying, Box's main target is enterprise market and they definitely charge a hefty amount from their customers.

They have beat analyst expectations for both revenue growth and profit (well, less loss) for every quarter since IPO, it's just a tough market.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by puredemo on Friday January 15, 2016 @07:39PM (#10913493)
I still can't fathom how monetizing what are basically just shared network drives, a feature already built into windows, is a successful venture.

Hire an IT guy and have him setup network shares, done. But obviously there seems to be some need I'm overlooking, considering the revenue these companies are making.

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by majani on Friday January 15, 2016 @09:52PM (#10914003)
User friendly packaging sometimes makes all the difference. Apple's empire is built on user friendly packaging.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by sumzup on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:20PM (#10912658)
Twitter's able to monetize; it's just not able to sustain user growth.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by askafriend on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:54PM (#10912892)
The user numbers have basically flat for many quarters now. It's really really bad.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by lloyd-christmas on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:50PM (#10913228)
Define "Many quarters". 10% grown in 2015 is hardly "flat" (288m to 316m). It's definitely less than prior years and less than other social apps, but "flat" is a strong word.
Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by xianb on Friday January 15, 2016 @05:26PM (#10912716)
>profit on them. Nope. http://gawker.com/here-are-the-internal-documents-that-prove...

Granted that businesses like Amazon are unprofitable, but Uber is not nearly going to be as stable

Re:Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months by jethro_tell on Friday January 15, 2016 @06:42PM (#10913183)
Isn't uber a long play on self driving cars that can be summoned with an app? That's why GM invested in lyft. They need someone to buy their fleet since the number of car owners is going to drop to a few companies in the next 20-50 years.