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Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:10PM (#10897976)
The author is ignoring the fact that there are no refunds with bitcoin.

He talks about predatory banking, but the finality of bitcoin transactions and lack of competitive insurance makes it even easier to scam the "unbanked". Bitcoin is also only pseudo-anonymous, and is more complicated to use than cash.

The Bill & Linda Gates backed M-Pesa fits most of the criteria laid down in the article, much more than bitcoin, but seeing as that is a competitor of Freemit (the author is the CEO), I don't think they're going to go into it.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by drcross on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @06:31PM (#10898506)
>The author is ignoring the fact that there are no refunds with bitcoin.

The author's first point was that "the unbanked want to remain anonymous". Refunds cannot happen while being anonymous.

Bitcoin is a replacement for cash, not an pseudo escrow service which we have come to expect in the western world with credit cards. Transactions are built on end-user trust. Credit card companies introduce a third party into the transaction which costs money. This is not a bug of bitcoin, it's a feature. The services you are referring to can, however, be built on top of the bitcoin system.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @06:42PM (#10898570)
> Refunds cannot happen while being anonymous.

Preferring anonymity != preferring no payment disputes.

Bitcoins are also only pseudo-anonymous, and every transaction is publicly available making it less anonymous than a closed payments system or cash.

This rhetoric that apologizes for Bitcoins design flaws ("it's a feature not a bug") is detrimental to future blockchain implementations that could design a competitive solution to refunds.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:36PM (#10899458)
That's like saying paper money has a design flaw, or ethernet has design flaws because it doesn't account for serving web pages.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Thursday January 14, 2016 @12:05AM (#10899741)
Or its like saying an automobile has a design flaw because it can't go in reverse.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Thursday January 14, 2016 @01:56AM (#10900006)
How is it at all the same thing? Bitcoin isn't a contained technology, it can be built on top of just as the internet is built on top of.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Thursday January 14, 2016 @11:30AM (#10902350)
Nope. It's even easier to mod an automobile because it doesn't require a consensus from the mechanics (miners) to make a change. See the block chain size debate if you're still unconvinced.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Thursday January 14, 2016 @01:58PM (#10903514)
There are many companies already building services on top of bitcoin, it doesn't take a change to the protocol and therefore it doesn't take any permission or consensus from anyone. I can't tell if you have a fundamental ignorance of crypto currencies or if this was an intentional straw man, but either way it is so far from being rational I'm not even sure how you would come up with it except for maybe learning about bitcoin through a game of gossip rather than reading or experience.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by cwyers on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @08:23PM (#10899000)
> The author's first point was that "the unbanked want to remain anonymous"

That seems wrong, and also self-serving. I doubt the people who are cashing their checks into prepaid debit cards at Wal-Mart are doing it for anonymity.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by nadaviv on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:32PM (#10898145)
The multi-signature feature in the bitcoin scripting language allows to add a refund process into bitcoin transactions. Bitrated, which I founded, provides consumer protection using that mechanism and a marketplace for dispute resolution service providers.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @05:46PM (#10898259)
Multisig escrow doesn't solve the refund use cases and isn't new/unique to bitcoin. There are plenty of use cases where a refund is needed just a day after the transaction is complete (defective items, economic hold up, etc.).

It can also be gamed if the additional parties are in on the scam, which requires a level of trust that the article says the unbanked do not have.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @10:41PM (#10899477)
If you want to mimic credit cards, just have a company hold the money for 30 days, take %3, and take away any disputed transactions from the business.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Thursday January 14, 2016 @12:19AM (#10899789)
A payment system that ties up the funds for 30 days in escrow is even less useful and not competitive.

Again, escrow is neither new nor unique to Bitcoin. It doesn't solve the refund problems. Why do you think it's not used by modern payment systems?

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Thursday January 14, 2016 @01:55AM (#10900002)
> A payment system that ties up the funds for 30 days in escrow is even less useful and not competitive.

I agree but that's what credit cards are.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by bduerst on Thursday January 14, 2016 @02:00AM (#10900011)
Absolutely not. ACH delivers funds in 1-3 business days.

Do you not know how credit cards work?

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by CyberDildonics on Thursday January 14, 2016 @11:13AM (#10902232)
From wikipedia:

> Businesses increasingly use ACH online to have customers pay, rather than via credit or debit cards.[citation needed]

> Rules and regulations that govern the ACH network are established by NACHA and the Federal Reserve. In 2013, this network processed nearly 22 billion ACH transactions with a total value of $38.7 trillion.[1] Credit card payments are handled by separate networks.

Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by DennisP on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @06:08PM (#10898389)
Credit cards can be gamed if Mastercard is in on the game, but that not something anyone worries about. Multisig escrow doesn't do away with the need for a trusted adjudicator, it just makes it possible to have one for Bitcoin.
Re:Why Bitcoin Can't Help the Poorest, Yet by zevyoura on Wednesday January 13, 2016 @06:09PM (#10898390)
M-Pesa is mentioned in the second sentence of the article.