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Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kornish on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:49PM (#10859848)
A great quote from the article:

"The defensive writing style also encourages another sort of ugliness, which is that “avoiding saying something wrong” becomes a primary focus of the writing, rather than communicating or exploring ideas which the author might himself be unsure of."

One thing that's great about Gwern Branwen's writing is that Gwern's essays are accompanied by a "belief tag". That tag gives the ability to say "This essay is exploratory; I don't have a high degree of confidence that it's canonically true." Details here: http://www.gwern.net/About#belief-tags

Having the option to dissociate ideas from one's person can give a lot of freedom to put contrarian ideas out there and spark debate in search of the Truth without fearing personal attack. Indeed, one of the things that I consider to make a healthy company culture is that ideas can be criticized without the people behind the ideas feeling criticized themselves.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by Florin_Andrei on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:53PM (#10859875)
It's one of the surprising side-effects of the Internet that anything whatsoever you might say in a public forum can potentially offend someone, somewhere, somehow.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by proksoup on Thursday January 07, 2016 @02:25PM (#10860085)
I recently watched Slavoj Zizek speak about how political correctness is a more complete totalitarianism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tndXr-oQxxA

I am optimistic the video has some relevance to this discussion.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by m52go on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:13PM (#10861553)
Mises recently published an excellent article on this topic, titled "PC is About Control, Not Etiquette"

https://mises.org/library/pc-about-control-not-etiquette-0

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by jxramos on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:37PM (#10861687)
"PC is best understood as propaganda" what a bold statement! I like this critical exploration of the whole concept of PC, pretty fascinating.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by danieltillett on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:50PM (#10860647)
You can look at this positively and that if someone gets offended then at least people are reading your work. It is very disheartening when you take the time to write something thoughtful and you get no response at all.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 07, 2016 @08:27PM (#10862269)
This has been turned into art by professional media outlets. That's the whole point of almost every single article they publish - the more people they can outrage or offend, the more people read and thus the more ad money flows in.

> It is very disheartening when you take the time to write something thoughtful and you get no response at all.

Scott Alexander explored this topic in [0]. He also laments the fact that the posts he considers most valuable are read the least, while his most controversial ones are also the most popular. He even has a nice graph of it[1].

[0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/

[1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/sschits.png

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by Mickchicken2 on Saturday January 09, 2016 @03:34PM (#10872761)
Thank you for sharing this. Fascinating read. Do you have any similar material?
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by jandrese on Friday January 08, 2016 @12:59AM (#10863213)
I've been banned from a few forums for not toeing the line on the moderator's personal agenda. It comes with the territory of discovering as you get older that other people are sometimes just crazy and you shouldn't feed the crazy.

I mean that literally. These people have mental health issues and they want you to bend over backwards to accommodate them out of a sense of guilt or something. You shouldn't do it. You're just enabling the sickness. It's like those guys who keep running out for more Twinkies even after their partner has grown so large that they can't fit through the door of the bedroom and are trapped.

If someone is claiming that your use of regular English adverbs is triggering their PTSD then they are the ones with the problem, not you.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kazinator on Friday January 08, 2016 @01:03AM (#10863232)
> people are sometimes just crazy and you shouldn't feed the crazy

Those that ban people out of forums believe they are following same principle.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by tetraodonpuffer on Thursday January 07, 2016 @04:33PM (#10860959)
and can follow you for the rest of your life
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by madaxe_again on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:57PM (#10859910)
Look, I'm not being racist, but I am mortally offended. You know what you said.

Edit: in case you missed it, this was sarcastic.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by foxhill on Friday January 08, 2016 @02:34AM (#10863495)
you're being down voted because your response does not contribute to the discussion; we all get it, people can feel offended from almost any statement - that is the point of this article.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 07, 2016 @08:39PM (#10862311)
I absolutely love the "belief tags" / "epistemic status" annotations. Gwern stole his "belief tags" from[0] (I link it because there's a cool article there worth checking out), and Scott Alexander has also adopted them.

This sort of matches the way I personally thing about information and my own opinions. Back in my head I always have this feeling of "degree of confidence", of how sure I am about what I'm saying, and it's often hard to express it in the speech itself. It fits perfectly as meta-data / qualification. Saying once, "this is a thought I'm playing with, I'm not sure either way" beats having to qualify every sentence with "maybe".

Also, I have most fun reading arguments that sound totally convincing to me but are tagged by author as something he doesn't have high confidence in. I end up having to figure out how this smart guy just convinced me of something he himself isn't sure about.

[0] - http://webcitation.org/6DuYcqyQ3

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kornish on Thursday January 07, 2016 @10:09PM (#10862672)
Thanks for the link, that's fascinating read!

It seems that many people who I would call "intellectually honest" end up developing speech patterns to avoid (1) speaking in absolutes; and (2) making statements of opinion articulated as statements of fact. An example of (1) is to use the words "many" or "most" instead of "all". An example of (2) is to start opinions with "I think".

Those speech patterns, though, can lead to writing which is bland and less than forceful, full of justifications with no interesting assertions to be found. One huge plus of this belief metadata, as you note, is that it frees the author to make bold and daring statements (and hopefully back them up) without committing to the truth of those statements. I think it can make for great writing – the style of strong and passionate assertion mixed with (via the disclaimer) the sensibilities of a reasoned opinion.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by jandrese on Friday January 08, 2016 @01:03AM (#10863229)
I'm having trouble justifying the tradeoff between: "That's well reasoned but far too wishy washy" and "So forceful! So eloquent! Factually wrong but the way you said it completely sold it to me! Amazing!"

It's Obama vs. Trump.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by TeMPOraL on Friday January 08, 2016 @04:20AM (#10863793)
Do you actually believe what you wrote? How sure are you that this is an accurate portrayal of your thoughts? Is it true that this trade-off can be best described "Obama vs. Trump"? Do you expect your opinion to change in time, or stay the same?

Write down the answers in a few words, then slap them in brackets at the beginning, and there, you've created your first belief tag :).

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kornish on Friday January 08, 2016 @01:47AM (#10863350)
Sure, except that Trump doesn't make a disclaimer before or after all his statements that he might be wrong to some degree.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by dclowd9901 on Friday January 08, 2016 @02:42AM (#10863512)
So timely. In another HN thread, I simply raised a point that drunk driving wasn't the largest threat to road safety based on statistics, and was labeled an apologist drunk driver.

The real problem is that if you put your ideas out there, and someone says something like that, and you don't respond, they've gotten the last word, and your silence is a patent acceptance of their point (as it would be in a face-to-face debate). So we try to guard our opinions with "This is just my opinion" (duh, whose else opinion would it be?), or try to beat others to the counterpoints, and when you are constantly setting up defenses to your ideas, your idea loses a lot of potency and clarity.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by sawwit on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:48PM (#10861761)
How about introducing a simple convention for indicating your degree of belief in similar manner to the sarcasm indicator /s: One could write for example /p1 .. /p9 to refer to the probabilities 0.01% .. 99.9%.

That could resolve a lot of issues that occur in text communication. /p7

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by ghaff on Thursday January 07, 2016 @07:14PM (#10861913)
Funnily enough, that was an oft-ridiculed approach taken by IT industry analysts Gartner for many years. $NEWTECH will achieve > 50% penetration within 5 years. p = .65