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Re:After Capitalism? by lifeisstillgood on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:36AM (#10722341)
I tried, honestly I tried. I tried to read it. I wanted to see the arguments because this is an area of interest to me.

But I can't write a tl;dr - it would not sink in my brain. Part overview of the area, part, something else, I really have no idea what the author was trying to say

Please enlighten me

Re:After Capitalism? by skrebbel on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:49AM (#10722361)
This. I mean,

> Several crashes later, the gloom has returned, and the signs of autumn are once again most recognizable in the pronouncements of free-market capitalism’s erstwhile boosters.

I tried to read this sentence 3 times now, and I still do not know what it means. The same holds for entire paragraphs.

IMO the author needs a healthy dose of http://web.princeton.edu/sites/opplab/papers/opp%20consequen...

Re:After Capitalism? by 21echoes on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:09AM (#10722396)
> > Several crashes later, the gloom has returned, and the signs of autumn are once again most recognizable in the pronouncements of free-market capitalism’s erstwhile boosters.

> I tried to read this sentence 3 times now, and I still do not know what it means. The same holds for entire paragraphs.

Is that sentence really that hard to read? I mean, it's definitely overly flowery, but it means almost word-for-word "After many financial crises, there is a lot of economic pessimism around again, even among free-market capitalism's biggest proponents."

Re:After Capitalism? by skrebbel on Saturday December 12, 2015 @07:57AM (#10722596)
I didn't know an "erstwhile booster" is a person. Therefore, I thought "pronouncements" referred to something legal, instead of just a complicated word for "opinions". My best guess at the meaning of the sentence, therefore, was something completely different and nonsensical.

The whole article is like this. Misunderstand one flowery phrase, misunderstand the entire sentence, misunderstand the whole paragraph. It's like the author hates convincing people.

Re:After Capitalism? by 21echoes on Sunday December 13, 2015 @11:27PM (#10729413)
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+erstwhile

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+booster

/shrug If those are familiar words to you, then I think it's a little harsh to say that they "hate convincing people" because they use them. Totally agree that a good author edits out rarer words to reach a broader audience, but I think that's a very weak vector of critique for the article as a whole.

Re:After Capitalism? by microcolonel on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:02AM (#10722384)
Re:After Capitalism? by 21echoes on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:06AM (#10722391)
TL;DR: The article is lamenting the inability of the modern, technocratic left to offer compelling paths forward out of the current economic stagnation.

* The editors point to previous boom/bust cycles, and the tendency of strong workers movements & chains of strikes/riots/unions to emerge during the bust periods and demand an economic shift towards greater workers rights / less control by capitalists.

* They then point out that no such strong workers movement is emerging in this bust cycle.

* They claim that this is because there is a strong line of "accelerationist" thinking among the modern left (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism). TL;DR on accelerationism: most of HN's libertarian leftism -- embrace automation, adopt basic income, make everyone their own producer (3D printing, off-the-grid electricity, etc.).

* The article claims that this movement will not succeed without significant political change alongside its technological advances, and that no such political effort is currently happening, as far as the editors can tell. "The potential alone for this sort of mass liberation isn’t a guarantee that it will ever take place"

Re:After Capitalism? by lifeisstillgood on Saturday December 12, 2015 @04:03PM (#10724141)
Thank you. This is not new though is it?

" The old divisions of left and right seem to be falling apart and we don't know what's going to replace it yet"

The right is now collapsing into isolationist farce (Trunp being the epitome of what has happened across the Western world), the left is, well we aren't sure what. I agree with the final ideas - utopia is not destiny.

Thanks

Re:After Capitalism? by brian-armstrong on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:47AM (#10722359)
He's saying that peoples' rights will be protected through the action of the worker, not through new technology. There is something of a meme right now that we will singularity our way into a utopian era of plenty. The author is saying that this isn't something we get automatically, that the middle and lower class have to continue to struggle in order to benefit from advances in automation and dramatic increases in productivity.
Re:After Capitalism? by Maarten88 on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:54AM (#10722372)
The article is a lot of incoherent rambling indeed.

My interpretation: Capitalism is on its last legs, but the "new left" has no idea what will be next, other than there will be robots, there is basic income and it's better than what we have now, just because.

Re:After Capitalism? by 21echoes on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:00AM (#10722382)
He is strongly critiquing the notion that "there will be robots, there is basic income and it's better than what we have now, just because." He labels this notion "Accelerationism", and then the final section tears it apart (even the section discussing it is constantly pointing out its flaws). To wit, the closing paragraph: "Though the times are bad, the accelerationists presume that the state of the left will get better simply because it can, in principle, get better. An imaginative (if implausible) account of the future, accelerationism is a weak account of how anyone might be persuaded to get there. [...] The accelerationists seem to be telling us: forget about [political effort], [automation] will do that work [of distributing power to the masses] for us! But politics can’t get done by machines."
Re:After Capitalism? by puredemo on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:03AM (#10722385)
>But politics can’t get done by machines.

Can't it?

Democracy is simply voting, which can easily be handled by machines.

Re:After Capitalism? by icen on Saturday December 12, 2015 @06:15AM (#10722407)
When you go to vote, are you only ever concerned about the mechanical action to place a cross in a box?

There's quite a lot more to politics, and politics in democracy, than just the act of voting.

Re:After Capitalism? by bildung on Saturday December 12, 2015 @07:06AM (#10722485)
> Democracy is simply voting, which can easily be handled by machines.

Voting is simply voting. If you insist on inventing a new definition, Democracy is a specific mode of a) gathering and representing the political will of the population; and b) a specific mode of forming that political will by the civil society. Voting is just the rather banal part of making the present aggregate political will visible and quantifiable. The most defining part of Democracy happens before the vote.

Re:After Capitalism? by puredemo on Saturday December 12, 2015 @09:51AM (#10722905)
I'm not sure b) is generally included in the definition of democracy. Could you reference something that implies that?
Re:After Capitalism? by bildung on Saturday December 12, 2015 @02:03PM (#10723731)
> I'm not sure b) is generally included in the definition of democracy. Could you reference something that implies that?

Its in most political science textbooks, and even on wikipedia, hidden in point 2 of the 4 point definition at the top.

Have a look at most socialist eastern european countries in the 1980s. You had multiple parties, and you could vote. But surly we both wouldn't describe that as democracy. What was missing? Formally, there wasn't much of a difference. Sure, you often had compulsory voting, but Australia has that too.

The missing part was the lack of an independent civic sector. You had no politically relevant NGOs, no independent unions etc. You couldn't simply create a new political party at will. The government was the only actor able to meaningfully influence the political landscape.

Re:After Capitalism? by aspec on Saturday December 12, 2015 @07:55AM (#10722590)
The legislative branch of the government cannot be replaced with machines. Think a little harder.
Re:After Capitalism? by puredemo on Saturday December 12, 2015 @09:54AM (#10722915)
Ballot issues today can be passed directly by voters even when they are blatantly unconstitutional. Then the judicial branch sorts out the conflicts. That is essentially already a primitive example of democracy being run by voting machine.

Just because you are used to the current legislative system doesn't mean it isn't replaceable.

Re:After Capitalism? by tim333 on Saturday December 12, 2015 @05:46AM (#10722356)
I gave it a quick try but it was too painful. TL;DR discusses various lefties waffling about what'll happen when the robots do the jobs, I think.