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Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by fletchowns on Friday November 13, 2015 @02:31AM (#10558454)
In California, if you aren't driving 5 mph over the speed limit, the car behind you is going to tailgate the hell out of you. It's ridiculous, I know.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by joedavison on Friday November 13, 2015 @02:57AM (#10558519)
I'd like to see police start giving tickets for tailgating instead of speeding. Speeding alone is rarely very dangerous, especially on roads with few other cars.

On the other hand, tailgating is always extremely dangerous, even when the speeds involved are relatively low.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by threeseed on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:01AM (#10558537)
Tailgaiting is a vague concept though. One person's idea of tailgaiting is another person's idea of maintaining a safe braking distance.

If you tried to for example leave a car's body length distance in most busy cities you would have car after car aggressively cutting in front of you. This is even more dangerous than the original tailgaiting.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by brazzledazzle on Friday November 13, 2015 @05:28AM (#10559036)
Now, I'm not saying a car's length is an appropriate distance. Generally speaking it should be 2-3 seconds. But I see this idea a lot on the internet, particularly on reddit: I should be unsafe because other people will get mad at me for being safe which will make them do wildly unsafe things.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that. Police need to start focusing on safety instead of revenue generation. I don't care what some idiot is doing, if you're tailgating them at highway speeds in the lane next to me you're putting us all at risk just so you can get somewhere 3 minutes faster. I don't care if you're upset about the length between the car ahead of you and the one ahead of it. Cutting them off in the lane next to me and nearly causing a reck is insane. We have to stop just accepting that being an asshole is okay and start holding people accountable.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by Terretta on Friday November 13, 2015 @06:14AM (#10559186)
On the contrary, its unsafe to not tailgate close enough. Speed and tailgating don't kill, differences in speed kills.

If you are two seconds behind, they could come to a near stop and you can crash into them at full speed.

If you drove with zero distance between the your bumper and the car in front of you, if they brake hard you will have no impact at all.

This is why it's safe for train cars to tailgate.

In my view, autonomous cars will likely one day form trains for higher traffic density and throughput while remaining safe.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by polymatter on Friday November 13, 2015 @07:22AM (#10559409)
If you drove with zero distance between your bumper and the car in front of you, they will be unable to brake hard, because its trying to stop an extra ton of mass. you're fine sure, but they just ran over that kid crossing the road without looking. or just t-boned someone. and heaven forbid someone was tailgating you too.

autonomous cars can form trains because they can react orders of magnitude faster than a human can to suddenly changing driving conditions.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by brazzledazzle on Friday November 13, 2015 @08:26AM (#10559695)
You seem to have taken the concept that the larger the differences in velocity the greater the damage and extrapolated more from it than you ought to have.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by pluma on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:41AM (#10558661)
It's not, though.

In Germany the minimum safety distance is taught in driving classes and severe violations of it will be fined like any other reckless behaviour.

The rule of thumb is "as much of a distance as you pass within two seconds". This scales wonderfully with speed and easily covers the reaction time and breaking duration.

Sure, in urban traffic the typical safety distance is usually less than a vehicle length, but with both tailgating and cutting in on someone constituting reckless driving offences, that's not a huge problem.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by ollie87 on Friday November 13, 2015 @07:32AM (#10559450)
It's the same in the UK.

You can also be fined for hogging lanes on a motorway, thankfully.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by pluma on Monday November 16, 2015 @01:49PM (#10576234)
We also have a concept called "Richtgeschwindigkeit", a recommended maximum speed. For the Autobahn (German motorways) it's 130 km/h unless there is a speed limit lower than that. This is the speed you're expected to drive under "normal" circumstances (i.e. good weather, low to medium traffic, clear sight).

Part of driver's education is being able to adjust your speed to the conditions and safely maintain the recommended speed on the Autobahn when possible. If you are too scared to drive at such speeds or unable to do so safely, you won't pass.

Of course we still have plenty of drivers who are afraid of driving on the Autobahn (often because they don't do it regularly enough once they have the driver's license) and especially the elderly can be in denial about the limits of their actual abilities and make up for their inability to drive safely by driving more slowly (which isn't necessarily any safer).

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by georgerobinson on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:09AM (#10558752)
In the UK it's not uncommon to see chevrons painted along each lane where in you're meant to keep a minimum of two chevrons from the car in front (http://www.roberthempsall.co.uk/blogimages/keep-apart-2-chev...).
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by tajen on Friday November 13, 2015 @01:14PM (#10561330)
Talgetting is measured in seconds as reaction time + braking distance = ~2s, whether you are on a highway or in a city. There is nothing sujective about it. Most drivers keep just enough room for the reaction time, and it works ok as long a the car ahead doesn't hit an immobile object (e.g. a log, a car, a kangaroo, a wild boar).
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by 05 on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:30PM (#10562526)
Fixed 1 second of braking time won't save you if the front car hits an immobile object. The correct formula would be (1 + .046 mph) seconds [0], where mph is speed in miles per hour. It evaluates to 3.76s at 60mph and at 4.9s 85. Note that 1 second of reaction time is not exactly generous: http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/niatt_labmanual/chapters/geom... - cites times 'less than 2.5 seconds' to actual brake application.

[0] 1mph/(9.8m/s2) in seconds, according to Google, assuming friction coefficient of 1

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by judk on Friday November 13, 2015 @10:35AM (#10560351)
If tailgating is dangerous, in the sense that it is involved in a collision, the law finds the tailgater responsible 99% of cases. It just isn't applied predictively.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by ggreer on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:05AM (#10558554)
To be fair, many of the speed limits are low. Look at street view where the car was pulled over.[1] El Camino Real is a divided boulevard with three lanes in each direction. There are stoplights and dedicated turning lanes. I'm not an aggressive driver, but I've caught myself speeding on that road before. Everything about it makes my mind think, "It's safe to go faster."

1. https://goo.gl/maps/WdfhEAGBsDP2

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by ilyanep on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:22AM (#10558616)
El Camino always seemed to me like it has an absurdly low speed limit, then a friend reminded me that there are unsignaled pedestrian crosswalks along it in Mountain View. It's true that it feels like it ought to be a 45 road, though.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by dickdastardly on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:04AM (#10558738)
Here in Britain, it's entirely lawful and very common to cross 40-60MPH roads without signals. Often the roads don't even have a marked crossing, since you can legally cross wherever you want.

It's also not too uncommon to cross a non-motorway 70MPH dual carriageway, when walking outside a city.

I don't know if our roads are safer for pedestrians than the USA. They're considerably safer in total, but it seems difficult to compare the US and UK for pedestrians in particular because of the differing laws and distribution of methods of travel. However, they're probably at least in the same ball park, despite our more laissez faire attitude toward pedestrian-road interaction.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by DanBC on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:09AM (#10558754)
As one example of a crossing which does have warnings:

The A417 between Cirencester and Cheltenham is a dual carriageway that has pedestrian footpaths across it.

Imagine driving at 70mph toward this:

350 yard warning: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8078399,-2.0618748,3a,75y,...

actual crossing: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8051623,-2.0595278,3a,75y,...

350 yards at 70 MPH is, I think, 10 seconds.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by kwhitefoot on Monday November 16, 2015 @05:07AM (#10573560)
That's about twice the stopping distance for a wet road so plenty of time to stop except that you can't tell until a lot later that someone might be about to cross because you can't see the pedestrian approach. I come from Swindon and drive that road quite often when I go back to visit family and I have never seen a pedestrian cross it. I certainly wouldn't like to do it except on a bright clear and dry day but I dare say that the locals might have a better idea of the risks.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by brazzledazzle on Friday November 13, 2015 @05:18AM (#10558992)
A lot of drivers in the US are hostile towards anything that's not a vehicle. Heck, they're often hostile towards anything that's not a car or a truck like motorcycles. I see more hate for those riding bicycles but pedestrians get a fair amount too.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by DrScump on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:57AM (#10558704)
I don't know of any on El Camino in Mountain View not at a controlled intersection. There are some on ECR in Sunnyvale (e.g. just W of Halford) and two notorious ones in Santa Clara, though.

Of course, the County wants to reserve a lane for bus use only now...

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by judk on Friday November 13, 2015 @10:36AM (#10560356)
It is a stupid road. Built for speed, legistlated for slow. The road should be modified to make traffic calmer.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by jacobolus on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:28AM (#10558631)
With three lanes in each direction, there should be plenty of room for other cars to safely pass a Google car, no?
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by agumonkey on Friday November 13, 2015 @02:35AM (#10558469)
I think it's universal behavior. Driving at speed limits gets you angry looks, below speed limit and people wanna hurt you. All that so they can reach the red light earlier.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by clort on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:57AM (#10558705)
> angry looks

I wonder how well the self driving car copes with these.

In fact, I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off. I guess it would handle that better than my mothers elderly neighbour who recently didn't manage to brake in time and hit the twerp, writing off her vehicle in the process. Of course, it was counted as her fault since she struck the car in front..

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by DrScump on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:13AM (#10558773)
I wonder how well the self driving car copes with an overly aggressive driver cutting in front and slamming on their brakes just to piss you off.

You really think Google can't afford a Death Ray in each car?

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by TeMPOraL on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:29AM (#10558830)
Death Ray or a dash cam and sensor logs. Let the insurer handle rest.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by judk on Friday November 13, 2015 @10:39AM (#10560379)
Sad and interesting. I rear ended a vehicle who turned into my lane, and the officer cited the other driver for an unsafe turn.

I guess it depends on officer mood and how long the car was safely in your lane before the breaking. Mostly officer mood.

Still, there are lots of completely legal sudden braking activities that would cause a collision over 10% of the time. People don't actually drive totally defensively all the time.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by agumonkey on Friday November 13, 2015 @05:06AM (#10558951)
I'd love to see fringe behavior, I couldn't find anything like these, how their system react to limit cases. I'm sure they're overly conservative and always overstimate margins so they can handle crazy drivers, but surely there's a limit.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by lsaferite on Friday November 13, 2015 @11:06AM (#10560518)
I find myself hitting red lights by those precious few seconds the slow driver stole form me more often than not. I just want to get from A to B with as few interruptions as possible. A self-driving car would be... amazing and calm my stress levels greatly.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by tajen on Friday November 13, 2015 @01:15PM (#10561341)
Speed limits are systematically set 20km/h lower than reasonable.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by developer1 on Friday November 13, 2015 @02:37AM (#10558476)
That is normal here too, and it's more like 7-8 mph. So you can receive a ticket for impeding traffic even if the people you are supposedly obstructing would be exceeding the speed limit? Instead of ticketing the slow guy, set up a sting and ticket every person exceeding the limit by more than 6 mph. This whole thing sounds backwards.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by mmmBacon on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:45AM (#10558674)
Driving substantially slower than the speed of traffic is extremely dangerous because of the potential speed differential. Relative velocity matters.

Also Regensdorf is really pretty busy and all you're doing by going slow is pissing people off. If you want to go that slow, that's what side streets are for.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by clort on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:05AM (#10558740)
An alternative viewpoint is that attempting to drive substantially faster than the slowest vehicle is extremely dangerous because of the potential speed differential. Relative velocity matters, as you know!
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by twblalock on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:00AM (#10558530)
It's a matter of public safety. Holding up a line of cars is likely to result in road rage, or an accident.

It's also very rare for slow drivers to get ticketed.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by clort on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:00AM (#10558719)
Incitement to riot is no excuse for rioting, surely?

Holding up a line of cars that would otherwise be driving too fast is not going to be the cause of an accident. The cause of the accident would be the driver who was driving too fast!

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by nitrogen on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:12AM (#10558766)
The point of traffic is to run an economy, not to parade at a precise speed for the amusement of deontologically obsessed nannies. If a line of traffic wants to go at speed+5, then the proper speed of traffic is speed+5, and going speed-5 is causing economic harm.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by TeMPOraL on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:32AM (#10558838)
You need to balance it against the amount of disutility from deaths caused by the line going at speed+5 on a road where they were supposed to be going at speed. You need to also add the disutility generated by that line fucking up traffic flow in the nearby area.

Seriously, this stuff is to be determined from top down, not from perspective of individual self-interested drivers with zero context, little responsiblity and no interest of ensuring optimum flow.

Also, the general culture of aggression and disregard for law is something that is not healthy for neither society, nor economy.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by cyber on Friday November 13, 2015 @12:04PM (#10560881)
Road speeds need to be re-evaluated every 5 years. They take into account the speeds of traffic that are currently flowing on the road.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by judk on Friday November 13, 2015 @10:43AM (#10560403)
How very undemocratic of you. Sometimes the law from top down is incorrect. The experiences of stakeholders matters.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by TeMPOraL on Friday November 13, 2015 @11:25AM (#10560631)
> How very undemocratic of you.

Yes, it is. So what? Democracy is not a silver bullet. Some problems it solves well, others it can't tackle.

> Sometimes the law from top down is incorrect.

Sometimes it is. And sometimes it isn't. I argue this is a case where top-down approach is the right one.

> The experiences of stakeholders matters.

I think health and life of innocent third parties should matter more.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by clort on Friday November 13, 2015 @11:56AM (#10560828)
I think that in reality, the innocent third parties concerned about their health and life on a road such as this are stakeholders. Moreover, there may be more of them so their needs would trump the few who simply wanted to drive fast and reach their destination 2 minutes earlier.

I'm not suggesting that the non drivers should always get their way though. There are roads where cars are allowed to be driven faster than this, and roads where pedestrians are not permitted.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by Piskvorrr on Friday November 13, 2015 @07:43AM (#10559492)
By inductive reasoning, the proper speed of traffic is equal to the maximum speed of the car, and anything less is causing economic harm. (#cc: That was sarcasm)

In other words, that would only work for a traffic system which only moves one way, linearly, and has zero branches. Out there in meatspace, things are...a little bit more complex. Intersections and buses and trucks and pedestrians, oh my.

Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by nitrogen on Saturday November 14, 2015 @12:01PM (#10566308)
To clarify, I'm referring to freeways, not suburban neighborhoods. No pedestrians.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by talmand on Friday November 13, 2015 @10:33AM (#10560339)
Take humans out of that equation and I would agree. Otherwise, that kind of thinking gets people killed. Which, I suppose, you don't care about since you are more concerned over the minute details of the economy.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by DrScump on Friday November 13, 2015 @04:11AM (#10558760)
Except that driving artificially slowly correlates well with being intoxicated... so being slow can call attention to oneself.
Re:Google self-driving car pulled over for driving too slowly by CamperBob2 on Friday November 13, 2015 @03:04AM (#10558545)
Yeah, it's almost as if the speed limits are unreasonably low, or something. Someone should look into that.