Population density is not the limiting factor--the rate at which people can be assimilated into American culture is. Immigration is great--I am an immigrant and am incredibly thankful for the opportunity. But what makes America an attractive place to immigrate to is ultimately rooted in its culture: low corruption, high tolerance for free thinking, low tolerance for racism and classism, respect for the economic contribution of women, directness and honesty, etc. You can't maintain culture with unrestricted immigration. The idea that you can is based on the ridiculous assumption that there is something special about America the place. There isn't. What's special is America the people.

It costs our public education system over 300K to educate an American child K-12. Why not reap the benefits of pre-educated, highly skilled persons who want to make a life for themselves in America?

There are only 65,000 H1-B visas per year. Surely the fabric of our country wouldn't dissolve if that number were doubled or even tripled.

I was responding to the point in the article linked by 'davidw: the optimal number of immigrants into the U.S. is over 2 billion (i.e. to match the population density of the U.K.) But I will also note that just because someone is educated does not mean they share American values. I have met very educated people who defend practices such as requiring women to be chaperoned in public. Where I come from (south asia), coming out as gay is still unacceptable, even in educated upper-class circles. I'm willing to pay $300k educating a kid here in the U.S. if we can use that opportunity to inculcate the proper values.

> the optimal number of immigrants into the U.S. is over 2 billion (i.e. to match the population density of the U.K.)

You should read beyond the first few sentences.

Edit:

> coming out as gay is still unacceptable, even in educated upper-class circles.

I think it would be difficult and dangerous to try and use the immigration system to select for, say, Obamas over Scalias.

The biggest American value is its diversity, which create the liberal values and progressive society that you guys have (otherwise American will just fight to the death if they don't accept each other values). Claiming something to be "American value" and then use it as a mean to cultivate a homogeneous culture seems to be a good way to turn conservatives.

> The biggest American value is its diversity, which create the liberal values and progressive society

Correlation, meet causation. Lots of countries are more diverse than the USA but are doing far worse when you look at crime/corruption/QoL statistics. Lots of countries are far more progressive and far less diverse.

You are attacking a strawman. I did not claim that diversity is a sufficient condition for progressive values, I did not even claim that it's a necessary condition. There are many sets of values that will go together to create a "good" society (for any subjective definition of good). For the case of the US, diversity is one of those values. It is entirely possible for a country to not have much diversity and still be a progressive country. In other words, I guess "create" in the quoted sentence should be replaced with "strongly influence".

Essentially, if you're claiming that diversity isn't one of the more defining cultural value of the US, and without it the States would be the same, then I would like to hear your reasoning.

> There are only 65,000 H1-B visas per year. Surely the fabric of our country wouldn't dissolve if that number were doubled or even tripled.

In a way, it's already 6 times higher, because H1-B is not a yearly visa, but (potentially, simplifying here) a six-year visa. 65k is only for "fresh" applications, not the concurrent limit.

Putting it another way, you are advocating leeching off of the educational systems of poor countries to save the USA a cost that it rightly owes its citizens regardless? Which is going to be spent anyway, regardless of whether that USA student later becomes an employed taxpayer?

In any case, this position only makes sense if you think people are a fungible, replaceable commodity. It does not address the parent's comment at all, which is about culture.

If you can add taxpayers who are already passed the point where you spend huge amounts of money on them then you win. So if you can snatch up people straight out of undergrad into high paying (highly taxed) jobs and have them contribute as young single workers then you should do it.

The difficulty about focusing on values is that the American value system is "fuck you, I've got my own value system".

There are millions of people in America who don't think women should have rights. There are millions of people in America who are uncomfortable with free thought. We've got racists, classists, and people who don't think that parents should be allowed to make all of the decisions about their children's upbringing. We've got corruption at all levels, and the only thing that vaguely keeps it in check is something probably fifty million Americans hate hate hate, Federal authority over the states.

You can try to claim these are marginal views, but they're really not. America may have some great things going for it, but cultural unity is not one of them.

The difference is when you say there are "millions of people in America who don't think women should have rights" you're being facetious and equating not having the right to an abortion with not having any rights at all. But applied to some countries that statement wouldn't be facetious at all.

Oh, I am not being facetious at all.

There are millions of Americans who believe that women should not be working outside the home, should not be "taking up space" in higher education, should not be associating with men they aren't related to or married to, shouldn't be dressing "provocatively" and "enticing" men to harass or rape them. There are millions who don't think women should serve in the military at all, let alone in combat roles. Disowned for dating or marrying the wrong boy or girl.

I will happily admit that the US is not the worst place in the world. Honor killings and throwing acid at people doesn't really happen here, even if spousal and partner abuse still flourishes and murder by an intimate is (one of) the most common sort of murder.

The equality and respect for human rights you can find in the US is fantastic, and I'm glad pop culture promotes it as a given, but it is not a universal aspect in American culture and in many places it is just a thin veneer over some very ugly deviations, held in place by the continuing hard work of dedicated activists.

>>America may have some great things going for it, but cultural unity is not one of them.

As an immigrant who has lived in both coasts as well as "flyover country", I totally agree. The claim that unlimited immigration would ruin American culture is laughable, because there is no such thing as "American culture". America has always been a melting pot of different cultures, much more so than any other country in the history of the world. That is what makes it unique.

> The claim that unlimited immigration would ruin American culture is laughable, because there is no such thing as "American culture". America has always been a melting pot of different cultures, much more so than any other country in the history of the world. That is what makes it unique.

This same claim gets made about Canada, and I always found it particularly offensive to anyone who isn't an immigrant with a foreign culture. It's a riduclous statement anyway. The south doesn't have their own culture? East vs west coast? Europeans were pointing out yesterday that Americans have different expectations for housing (bigger housing, suburbs), is that not a part of the culture?

Isn't the idea that we are welcoming to foreign cultures, and actively embrace multiculturalism a part of the culture?

That's exactly what I am saying: there is no homogeneous "American culture." It's a combination of many different cultures and cultural elements, some originated in America (e.g. jazz), others brought by immigrants and recalibrated for America (e.g. Tex-Mex). This cultural diversity is what makes America, America.

Compare this to, say, Norway, which is significantly more culturally homogeneous, so a sudden influx of a great number of immigrants would actually noticeably erode or at least dilute the native Norwegian culture.

While our culture is certainly more diverse than Norway's, I absolutely think that there are American values that, while certainly not held by all, do define us as a nation. Among them I would include:

- Pluralism

- A belief in the value of hard work

- A strong commitment to individual rights / individualism

- A certain degree of puritanism

- A belief in American Exceptionalism

- A belief that fairness should always be aspired to

- A fairly strong commitment to market capitalism

- A healthy dose of skepticism that government intervention is the solution to many problems

- A commitment that the "American Dream" is something that we should always strive to make real for everyone

None of those are American values or uniquely American. The belief in the value of hard work is a Puritan value, for instance. And everything else you listed is, to a certain extent (sometimes exceedingly so), shared by many other cultures. You think only Americans are skeptical of government intervention? You should travel to Turkey sometime and talk to some of my countrymen about what they think of the Turkish government. :)

Individual items in this list are certainly not unique, but I think that the list as a whole (with probably an addition or three) combined in the particular way that America does it is unique.

Yeah, but if you're willing to admit that these values are not universally or uniquely held by Americans, what is the problem?

If the Average American only holds 6 out of 10 of your imaginary Core American Values, what does it matter if we invite in a hundred million New Americans who also only hold 6 out of the 10, because they were from a different culture? Where is the assimilation problem?

(Also, "free market capitalism" and "skeptical of government intervention"? Really? Are you living in a bubble or just willfully pretending that the last 100 years of American history don't exist?)

That really depends on where people are coming from.