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Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by adevine on Friday November 06, 2015 @07:55PM (#10523059)
This is not just an issue with housing. Virtually EVERY product is built with less long-term quality.

I collect antique espresso machines. Some of these are highly sought after because they use big, heavy, high quality components: big brass boilers, copper piping, stainless steel enclosures and big brass groupheads. Compare that with many flimsy, plastic machines today (which rarely last more than a couple years), and it's no wonder there is a market for these older machines.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by peteretep on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:09PM (#10523105)

    > Virtually EVERY product
Well not just physical products. Flights are another good example.

    > Compare that with many flimsy, plastic machines today
... that are available at a cheap accessible price. It's still entirely possible to buy espresso machines that are built like tanks, or ones that have lots of expensive electronics, and so on. The high-end of the market has not disappeared...

    > it's no wonder there is a market for these older machines.
Market being the operative word here. We've seen a spread in the market to where the cheap end is now affordable by everyone, and the expensive end is even better than (and more expensive than) the best of the best was 20 years ago. Hard to see how this isn't a good thing, except from an environmental perspective.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by _delirium on Saturday November 07, 2015 @12:18AM (#10523844)
> the expensive end is even better than (and more expensive than) the best of the best was 20 years ago

I'm not sure about this part, unless you are very careful in what you're shopping for, and knowledgeable about it. One Achilles heel of a lot of current appliances is that there are now circuit boards everywhere, which are a common point of premature failure. If the computerized part of your appliance fails (due to a power surge, capacitor aging, etc.), the device is effectively bricked in a difficult-to-repair way, even if all the mechanical parts are still fine. One option is to buy all-mechanical high-end models, which works with some appliances (espresso machines) but is basically impossible with others (washing machines).

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by peteretep on Saturday November 07, 2015 @12:30AM (#10523867)
You couldn't buy a washing machine 20 years ago that was anywhere near as energy efficient, kind to your clothes, could figure out the right amount of detergent or softener to use, or had features like remote operation so your clothes don't sit damp all day. Durability is not the only mark of quality.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by frik on Saturday November 07, 2015 @01:55AM (#10524009)
I hope you know that energy efficients often means using motors with less Watt so that e.g. your washing machine will take longer to complete the washing cycle and with less hot water. The same with vacuum cleaners, eletronic kettles, etc. Eletro motors aren't a new invention, even brushless motors are there for some decades. Not every energy saving idea is a good idea. Often it's better to buy a few photovoltaic panels yourself and buy high quality brands that last decades (e.g. Miele washing machines). I would buy a 2000W vacuum cleaner that can clean my house in 30min than a 1000W vacuum cleaner that is less efficient in cleaning the floor so it takes at least twice as long to really clean the floor. In the end you often trade time for peak power usage. Sure, power grid operators like that.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by xorcist on Saturday November 07, 2015 @03:34AM (#10524174)
In published tests, cleaning ability is not correlated at all to power over a certain level. Most 2000W cleaners are older models, since research and development has focused on energy efficiency for the past decade, so they are even likely to be worse. I could easily construct a 10 kW model for you, and it's going to run very hot.

(There was this EU introduced power cap for domestic vacuum cleaners the other year, accompanied with articles how you should hurry up and buy one of the powerful ones before they were forbidden. I was in the market for one, and scoured every independent test I could find where I understood the language, and the result were the same: the modern ones using less power picked up small particles better. As soon as you have a powerful enough engine other things start to matter. That's when I sighed deeply about journalistic integrity and bought one of the newer models.)

You describe an important problem. Consumers keep buying older models, which are objectively worse, because they want a scalar value for "betterness". It's just like megapixels, where you stuff a 20 megapixel sensor behind a plastic lens and consumers buy it because big numbers are good.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by frik on Saturday November 07, 2015 @06:28AM (#10524492)
Some devices like a electric kettle are incredibly simple in how the works and you can't beat the real world physics, less Watt means more waiting time. You can only improve the design of vacuum cleaner and washing machines so much, a half as powerful device (Watt) won't make up the loss by a far superior design. Don't get me wrong I am for energy efficient devices, but I have an engineering degree and know a lot of the little tricks, and the average Joe falls for every marketing trick. These recent laws that were introduced by lobby-orgs aren't that great.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by xorcist on Saturday November 07, 2015 @12:19PM (#10525403)
Don't let your engineering degree stand in the way of finding out the facts. You claimed a 2 kW vacuum cleaner would clean in half the time, and there's plenty of data that suggests otherwise.

The claim that cleaning time is linear to motor effect is unrealistic at best. There is an optimum effect for the nozzle. A 10 kW engine wouldn't clear your floors any faster than a 1 kW one, and definitively not ten times faster. The best (household, not for garages or anything like that) vacuum cleaner commercially available on the market is likely closer to 1 kW than 2 kW.

You think only "average" people falls for marketing tricks, but this superficial knowledge of the engineering involved actually makes you an easier prey for the marketing trick that more powerful motors makes for a better product. That bigger numbers are better is one of the easiest marketing schemes ever.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by sanoli on Saturday November 07, 2015 @06:14AM (#10524461)
You're right. But...

...my dad's top-end washing machine bought 25 years ago is still going strong, working without a hitch. Had simple maintenance once. All the while I'm about to get my third model in 14 years.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by gambiting on Saturday November 07, 2015 @08:03AM (#10524662)
Survivorship bias. People point to a 25-year old washing machine and say "look, it still works!" but are unaware of millions of other 25-year old washing machines that are currently in our landfills.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by sanoli on Saturday November 07, 2015 @09:31AM (#10524863)
I'm talking about a specific model of washer. My dad did his research, talked to a bunch of maintenance guys who repaired machines for a living, and ended up buying the best built machine that was being sold. Recently I bought a couple of used Snap-on hand tools that were made in the early 90's. I know how tough they are. They are just pretty damn well built. In 20 years if I remark how great they're still going, that's not actually survivorship bias. Some things are supposed to last this long.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by gambiting on Saturday November 07, 2015 @10:37AM (#10525044)
Fair enough, but this also has a lot to do with cost - your dad probably spent a large chunk of his monthly salary(if not all of it) on a washing machine, but I spent literally 2-days worth on a brand new one when I got one couple months ago. If it dies in 3 years I won't even bother repairing it - I'll just get another one, it's too cheap not to.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by douche on Saturday November 07, 2015 @09:53AM (#10524920)
Snap-on is fantastic. If anyone ever sees any for sale at yard sales - even broken, rusted-up, mostly junk tools, buy them. If you can find a distributor, they honor the lifetime warranty.

Craftsman tools used to be the same, although you have to be careful - they've started mixing in the cheapo junk lines and putting the Craftsman name on them, and those don't necessarily have the same warranty policy.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by tsomctl on Sunday November 08, 2015 @12:43PM (#10529143)
More specifically, anything branded Craftsman Evolv is guaranteed to be garbage. I've seen Craftsman Evolv tools that are identical to ones at Harbor Freight, but at twice the price.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by cma on Saturday November 07, 2015 @12:33AM (#10523871)
FWIW, replacing the circuit board on a washing machine is pretty common and easy.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by _delirium on Saturday November 07, 2015 @12:44AM (#10523895)
I've only tried once, but I wasn't able to find anyone who could do that when mine died. It's possible the repair people I tried were just not knowledgeable, but they claimed you can't get those kinds of parts for older discontinued models (it was somewhere around 8-9 years old at the time it got knocked out by a lightning storm, while a washing machine mechanically should last ~15-20 years).

I do know someone whose entire business is reverse-engineering bricked old devices, sticking in a new circuit board with custom software. But it's expensive enough to hire him that his customers are all businesses with expensive equipment they want rescued, mostly 1990s vintage produced by now-defunct companies.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by icebraining on Saturday November 07, 2015 @08:12AM (#10524690)
We just got one pretty cheap for our 20-years-old Miele, it came from a machine that had something else break.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by Symbiote on Saturday November 07, 2015 @07:43AM (#10524632)
Did you try eBay? I see 50 for just one manufacturer on ebay.co.uk, a mixture of new and second-hand.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by ido on Saturday November 07, 2015 @03:25AM (#10524158)

    We've seen a spread in the market to where the cheap end
    is now affordable by everyone, and the expensive end is
    even better than (and more expensive than) the best of 
    the best was 20 years ago.
I've worked for a household-name European electronics manufacturer about 10 years ago (as an embedded programmer). Afaik their high-end offering differed from the low-end ones mostly or entirely in cosmetic details.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by babuskov on Saturday November 07, 2015 @01:29AM (#10523977)
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by madaxe_again on Saturday November 07, 2015 @03:20AM (#10524150)
Came here to say exactly that. Not sure why folks wouldn't think that the same philosophy which overtook manufactured goods post-war wouldn't also apply to construction.

I mean, I'm sat here in my living room, place was built 1798 (relatively modern), near as damnit everything is original. Stone floors. Stone fireplaces. Stone walls. Lath and plaster ceilings. Lime plaster.

They knew what they were doing, this shit is built to last.

These days, they also know what they're doing, but a house has a shelf life of 30 years, so you can tear it down later, not feel bad, and stimulate the construction industry. In theory. I. Practice people live in leaky shoeboxes made of twigs, paper and tar.

Finally, the insurance industry drives this. Ever try insuring a 100 year old slate roof in America? Good luck with that. They'll insist you rip it off and replace it with tar shingles, because no roof more than 20 years old can be any good.

My other property has a 13th century stone roof (limestone, stacked), and it's barely been maintained and is in perfect nick after 600+ years.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by douche on Saturday November 07, 2015 @10:01AM (#10524943)
I've never understood why people put asphalt shingles on new houses, instead of putting on steel roofing. It might be a hair cheaper, but the difference between shingle and the screw-on steel panels is not that much.

A.) Snow doesn't come off of shingles worth a damn unless you have a wicked pitch on your roof. So you have to get up and shovel off the roof, or risk icedams, leaks, and potentially the whole roof collapsing if you have really heavy snowfall.

B.) Shingles only last about 20-30 years. Steel roofing lasts a lifetime. You might have to repaint it once in a great while.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by burger_moon on Saturday November 07, 2015 @11:56AM (#10525312)
Steel roofs are a lot louder when it's raining and such, so it might have something to do with that. Also, they don't look as good (not so much for me personally, but in general) as a shingled roof. No question that they last a lot longer. I very often see large garages and barns built with steel roofs.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by alricb on Saturday November 07, 2015 @10:41PM (#10527356)
You should never have to shovel your roof; you should have a vented attic or enough insulation to avoid ice dams, and the structure should be strong enough to support the snow load.
Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by douche on Sunday November 08, 2015 @02:13PM (#10529445)
That would be a great ideal, but I've never seen it in practice. Probably with the truss-style roofs that are used commonly now, the snow weight is less of a problem than with the older rafter-style.

I'm unclear what point ventilation or insulation in the attic would have to do with ice dams... In my experience, it's caused by snow that doesn't get removed, which then melts, seeps down to the roof, and refreezes, with the texture of the shingles providing a greater surface area to freeze against.

All things being equal, it's nice to have a steel roof that will warm up on a sunny day and have all the snow slide off.

Re:Why has the quality of brick buildings declined in the la... by alricb on Sunday November 08, 2015 @08:17PM (#10530895)
See: http://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-046-dam-ic...

The snow melts because of heat coming from the inside the house. [1]

So if you keep your roof cold through insulation and ventilation, you don't need to remove the snow (as long as the roof can handle it structurally)

[1]: http://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/Portals/55/docs/CEERD-RV/CEER... [pdf]