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Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:02AM (#10519195)
That was the main point yes, but there is also the 'grow your own' benefit, so you know exactly what you are putting in your body and how it was produced.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by ucaetano on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:10AM (#10519234)
I'd politely disagree, unless you're a PhD in chemistry and botanics, you probably have no idea what you're putting in your body :)
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by fnordfnordfnord on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:51AM (#10519404)
One does not need a PhD in chemistry or botanics or horticulture, or genetics or anything else to know, for example:

* This cannabis was produced without the use of a potentially toxic pesticide.

* This cannabis has been treated with no other adulterant.

Even knowing very little about the specific properties of the cannabis one consumes, one can have a high degree of confidence that it will not cause harm if they have grown it themselves.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by grhino on Friday November 06, 2015 @09:22AM (#10519560)
The way we know the harm a material (plant byproduct, animal byproduct or synthetic compound) will do to a human body is by its history of ingestion by humans. Yes, we may have a longer informal history of ingestion of cannabis.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by fnordfnordfnord on Friday November 06, 2015 @09:32AM (#10519610)
>Yes, we may have a longer informal history of ingestion of cannabis.

Yes, and the reason we have to rely on that informal history is a political one, which has resulted in the avoidance of primary research on the effects of cannabis consumption.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by logfromblammo on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:55AM (#10520083)
Sure you do. You're putting heated Cannabis sativa or Cannabis indica in your body, containing cannabinoids that react with receptors in your nervous system. Despite the prohibitions, you probably have ample anecdotes that the side effects are generally increased appetite, decreased motivation, possible paranoia, and conversations that are pointless to anyone that is not high.

Even someone with multiple PhD degrees in the relevant areas of study isn't necessarily going to know the complete catalog of molecules involved, nor know which of those are biologically active in humans and which are inert, nor know which molecules agonize or antagonize which receptors, or whether they promote or inhibit uptake or reuptake of related neurotransmitters, nor know the short-term or long-term effects on any particular individual. There are only a few people that actually study the plant in enough detail to know those things.

This is, for the most part, because the federal prohibition has stifled scientific inquiry, by limiting both the availability of the plant to prospective researchers, and restricting the grant money far beyond what is normal for pharmaceutical research on other plants flagged for further investigation from traditional herb lore. Politics over science.

Most people don't know any more about it than ginseng tea, or chewed coca leaves, or even coffee. They don't have to. Eventually, we got to the point where instead of drinking boiled aspen bark tea for headaches, we started swallowing acetylsalicylic acid tablets, because that was determined to be the active analgesic ingredient. But before that, the tea still worked without anyone knowing exactly why, but with more side effects and less reliability. Using the raw plant--especially when harvested from the wild rather than cultivated under controlled conditions--caused less certainty in the dosage. The pills allowed us to take just enough to relieve our pain without causing more damage to our stomachs than was strictly necessary.

But in the case of marijuana, people tend to enjoy the side effects, and nothing in the plant seems to result in health-threatening effects, even from massive overdoses and shockingly frequent usage. So there's no rush to identify active ingredients, except by some twisted impulse to stop sick people from enjoying their treatment, or to prevent people from being able to produce their own medicines outside strict authoritarian supervision.

And different effects can be produced by selective breeding, like the strain for people who need to use a lot of medical marijuana to manage their symptoms, but don't want to be stoned or high all the time. You can't really do that with a drug that doesn't have a genome.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:14AM (#10519261)
Technically, yes, of course that is correct.

But regardless of how rational it seems, some people just want to avoid heavily refined pharmaceuticals that have gone through chemical processes, regardless of how 'benign' we are (currently) told these are.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by ucaetano on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:33AM (#10519327)
"heavily refined products that have gone through chemical processes"

You mean Vodka? :)

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by nommm-nommm on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:51AM (#10520056)
So I assume you eat only raw plants you grew yourself and raw meat from animals you raised and killed yourself then?
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:59AM (#10520109)
Now you're just being silly.

I said 'some people' - I didn't say that was my own opinion.

Personally, I don't have a problem with refined drugs in general, but I do prefer to keep things (both food and drugs) simple, when it is possible, practical and effective to do so.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by nommm-nommm on Friday November 06, 2015 @11:31AM (#10520294)
I'm calling you out for your ridiculous rhetoric, indirection, and appeal to nature fallacy.

"heavily refined," "chemical processes," (oh no! Not the maillard reaction!!!!), "a plant," "solvents."

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by DanBC on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:10AM (#10519235)
Opium poppies are very very easy to grow.

Drinking opium tea for pain relief is probably a bad idea.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:21AM (#10519292)
True, and opium is much less addictive than refined products such as morphine, heroine, oxycodone and other potent opioids.

I'd also hazard an (uneducated) guess that the number of seeds (and hence land area) required would render this unpractical for most people?

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by DanBC on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:43AM (#10519370)
> opium is much less addictive

No, opium is highly addictive. It tends to be eaten, drunk, or smoked, not injected, and that route of administration makes a difference. But the actual substance is addictive.

Opium poppies provide their own seeds. A small garden provides plenty of space for small scale opium growing.

If I was in pain I would want a refined quality controlled product. I wouldn't want variable unpredictable doses. I need to be able to function (so too much is bad) and I want to control pain (so too little is bad).

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by wtbob on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:52AM (#10519408)
Having had surgery, and been prescribed mild opiates to deal with the pain, and being on them for a short enough time that I didn't get addicted, if I lived in a free country I would prefer to have a garden with some poppies and some marijuana (as well as hops and barley and grapes and apples…) and make my own medicine, but I'm a crazy DIY-type:-)

But I don't live in a free country, so I mayn't do that.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by themetrician on Friday November 06, 2015 @12:44PM (#10520715)
I knew a guy that grew his own opium to manage his pain. He went to work every day, was never late, did his job, was good to his family. He managed his doses well. Was he addicted?

What do you mean exactly when you say "the actual substance is addictive"? Does it contain addictaniolol? What you are saying makes no sense. People are either prone to be addicted to a substance or they aren't. Blaming the substance doesn't help anyone and it means nothing.

If "the actual substance" were actually addictive, as you seem to believe, then every person without exception would be addicted to it after one try. Clearly that isn't the case, therefore there is nothing inherent in opium, nor any other drug, that makes itself addictive.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @08:54AM (#10519417)
> No, opium is highly addictive

As you doubtless know, I didn't say it wasn't - I said it was less addictive that 'pharmaceutical grade' opioids.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by refurb on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:36AM (#10519947)
I don't think there is any evidence for that. Dried opium is 10% morphine. If you take 10 mg of morphine or 100 mg of opium, it makes no difference, you're still getting the same amount of an addictive drug.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:48AM (#10520031)
It does make a difference - opium is comprised of many alkaloids, in a similar way to how cannabis is made up of many cannabinoids. These alkaloids increase or decrease the effects of each other, as well as exerting their own influence.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by refurb on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:57AM (#10520094)
Yes, but you're still getting 10 mg of morphine. Other alkaloids aren't going to change how addictive 10 mg of morphine is.

In fact, pure morphine has fewer side effects than opium. Opium has alkaloids that can cause severe nausea, etc.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @11:27AM (#10520277)
> Opium has alkaloids that can cause severe nausea, etc.

Yes, it's well known that the alkaloid morphine causes nausea[1]. I can tolerate up to 30mg of immediate-release morphine (prescribed!), but beyond that I get bad nausea that is seriously off-putting. The nausea would certainly be a barrier to me getting addicted!

http://www.amepc.org/apm/article/view/1038/1264

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by facetube on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:36AM (#10519953)
It's not, though. At all. It literally contains morphine. It's harder to judge the dose. You will develop dependence every bit as quickly, and you can die from respiratory depression if the dose is too high.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by logfromblammo on Friday November 06, 2015 @11:14AM (#10520203)
Unlike purified morphine, raw opium can be selectively bred--or engineered--for qualities desired by humans. One such quality might be lower incidence of accidental overdose.

So perhaps the poppy also produces a substance that creates an aversion affect (probably due to extreme nausea) when it reaches a certain concentration in the body. If you approach an overdose, you might start puking your guts out, and wouldn't even be able to look at a 1928 O'Keeffe painting without clamping your jaw shut.

With purified morphine or heroin or methadone, you might just fall asleep and never wake up.

But the raw plant material might also contain something you don't know about that erodes the septum in your heart, and you die from chronic use instead of overdose. That's just one of the risks with whole-plant drugs.

Generally speaking, we have attempted to eliminate hidden side effects by using purified molecules, and attempted to overcome overdose by using prescriptions from trained experts. That isn't necessarily the best or only way to run civilization's pharmacy.

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by facetube on Friday November 06, 2015 @05:59PM (#10522620)
What would create that aversion effect? Thebaine? Anything's possible, I guess – but I haven't seen much evidence that there's any component of raw opium that can substantially slow or stop the respiratory depression and/or reinforcing effects.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by GordonS on Friday November 06, 2015 @10:46AM (#10520019)
I'm not saying it's not addictive, or that it's not dangerous - it is.

Morphine is however just one of the many alkaloids that make up opium - together they have a different effect than morphine alone.

I can't quickly find a reference beyond Wikipedia[1] that mentions opium being less addictive than, for example, morphine, but I read a lot of papers on drugs and have read this before. I'll try and find some and post back if I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine

Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by DanBC on Friday November 06, 2015 @03:33PM (#10521826)
You said "much less addictive". People are responding to the words you write.
Re:Prescription painkiller deaths fall in medical marijuana ... by facetube on Friday November 06, 2015 @06:03PM (#10522641)
A bunch of years back, there was a minor internet epidemic of people ordering poppy pod arrangements off of eBay and brewing them in to tea. It proved every bit as addictive as abusing morphine. There are a lot of plants out there that have a safety-favourable agonist/antagonist mix, but I'm not sure opium is one of them.