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Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by sremani on Monday November 02, 2015 @11:56AM (#10493014)
The bigger question is Should the State be making an Operating System? Choosing Linux is entirely different question and can be made successful with abundance of spending on retraining.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by swayvil on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:02PM (#10493084)
What retraining? I have several clients, computer illiterate old ladies, who use Ubuntu and Debian just fine. No retraining required.

They just jump on that desktop and go.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by dangerlibrary on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:07PM (#10493138)
Until something goes wrong.

Like if they can't read the tiny font in the file menu. Then they google it, and discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-tweak-tool." Then they manage to actually find a terminal window and run the command, and install the tool, and turn up every available font rendering option, and it still doesn't solve their problem.

That is just one real world example. Linux is an operating system used and built primarily by people who are willing to put up with a little bit of crap to get 99% of what they want, and live with the rest. Imagine if Windows or OSX required you to open a terminal and install a third party lib to increase your font size. People would call them insane.

Just to be clear: I use a linux desktop every day. I love it and it would require a substantial increase in compensation for me to switch back to a Windows machine. But saying that computer illiterate/naive workforce can switch operating systems with no retraining costs is demonstrably false.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by superskierpat on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:43PM (#10493517)
Honestly, how many of them do you actually expect to be able to fix the problem on windows? They just call the it guy.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by forinti on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:06PM (#10493723)
Exactly! A friend of mine was afraid he wouldn't know how to configure wifi on Linux. I pointed out that he couldn't configure it on Windows either.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by RobertoG on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:36PM (#10493952)
People get use to Ubuntu very fast.

In my experience, the big problem in organizations are legacy documents and formats. Especially Excel. LibreOffice is good but it's not going to run the macros that were created 10 years ago by guys that are now retired in some beach.

The other big problem is specialized software (already amortized) that only run in Windows.

The funny thing is that kind of problems happens even between different versions of windows.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by swayvil on Monday November 02, 2015 @02:28PM (#10494448)
Ditto. Legacy documents and formats.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by swayvil on Monday November 02, 2015 @02:27PM (#10494434)
Yes, I address my Linux using clients' issues for them. But it's the same with my clients who use Windows too. They can't fix it for themselves either.

In fact, I see about 5 times as many Windows issues as Linux issues. And it's easier to fix a Linux machine.

This story that you are telling about how Windows is easy and Linux is hard, and about how there will be this big transition cost, is just bs.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by infinity0 on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:19PM (#10493264)
How's that different from Windows? Instead of opening a terminal, I double click?
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by dangerlibrary on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:28PM (#10493373)
I believe you can simply zoom, using ctrl-+ or ctrl-scroll wheel. It's a common pattern that works across applications in windows and OSX, but for whatever reason isn't implemented in the file menu of Ubuntu systems. Maybe for open-source-y political reasons or maybe because component X of Y system included in the file menu already uses that shortcut. It doesn't matter - the existing knowledge of how to zoom in is useless, and you're stuck figuring out the new system.

Again, it's just one example. Others are far worse: try to figure out how to play a song or some other audio into a skype call by piping data directly into the mic input channel. It's pretty trivial in windows, and there are third party tools with easy to understand GUIs if you can't figure it out on your own. On Linux you'll be futzing with jackd configs for hours.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by infinity0 on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:43PM (#10493518)
In many FOSS applications ctrl -/+ works too. I've had to mess around with audio and video on Windows too, it's not pretty. It definitely does not "just work". I've never needed to pipe data into a mic input channel on Linux. These days one probably wants "pavucontrol".

I don't like arbitrarily changing UX either, but it's not like Windows doesn't have that problem. I had massive switching headaches moving to the new "ribbon" based stuff in Microsoft Office.

Of course neither side is perfect, but I am thoroughly unconvinced by the "unusable" argument. THere are definitely biases with ignoring the headaches that Windows forces upon users.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by dangerlibrary on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:39PM (#10493975)
Nobody in this thread said that linux is unusable.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by JupiterMoon on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:02PM (#10493691)
OK I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt an assume you don't use Linux much... But both of your examples are not accurate.

For your first example ctrl double swipe on my trackpad works pretty much everywhere and ctrl +/- works everywhere except my terminal where ctrl-shift +/- does the job.

As for your second. This is not a common use case that any non-technical person would even think of trying. If you needed to I would suggest ignoring jackd (whatever that is) and using the gui for pulse audio control.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by dangerlibrary on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:17PM (#10493804)
ctrl-+ does not increase font size in the file menu. Try it. Icons get bigger, font size remains the same. If you can find a way to increase the font size, even with unity-tweak-tool, I'll eat my hat.

The second example is used by people who play video games all the time. People do it for skype/ventrilo calls during gaming sessions constantly. It may not be a common use for _for you_ but it is not as rare as you appear to think.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by JupiterMoon on Monday November 02, 2015 @04:42PM (#10495487)
You want to change your gui window fonts right? On XFCE you type appearance into the whisker menu and go to the fonts tabs. I'd never wanted to do this before but it took all of 10 seconds to figure it out. No idea how to do it on windows/unity/osx etc but I'm sure I could figure it out within a similar time.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by mikeryan on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:25PM (#10493333)
My neighbor, son, daughter, friend, mailman all probably can provide an answer?
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by zanny on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:35PM (#10493943)
I do IT support in the small town I live in. I always advocate Kubuntu / Ubuntu / Gnome (I just throw them at it for 10 mins each and whichever one they like most they get) and they are no more capable of fixing something wrong with their computer on those distros than on Windows.

But at least I can ssh into their rigs after the fact and fix them remotely. Trying to get them running teamviewer every time there is a problem on Windows is a nightmare.

Also consider the #1 reason I get called is because people install some virus or spyware or clickjacker by clicking and running random stuff off the Internet. On any Linux based distro none of that stuff works so what ends up happening is my repeat customers every 2-4 months are Windows users and the dozen or so clients I have using some flavor of Ubuntu might email me once a year like "can I run X?" and I just go look on playonlinux if its supported or not. Libreoffice opens all the old Doc and XLS files fine, their printers work, their wifi works, they can use their crappy 1995 webmail client from their ISP no problem, and they even get neat perks like having their phone rings show up in their desktop notifications if they use KDEConnect.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by infinity0 on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:32PM (#10493405)
Please, do provide an answer. And I mean a real answer of real things they actually did, that is comparable on Windows and Linux, as opposed to marketing crap someone else told them about that they then mis-stored in their own heads as false memories.

My experience is that there is no substantial difference in the amount of "fucking around" you have to do with Windows or Linux. I had to install custom graphics drivers from third party sites, install custom keyboards, mess around with random settings, especially after upgrades between different OS versions.

Please show me an actual study instead of talking about personal anecdotes.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by dangerlibrary on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:39PM (#10493482)
You have provided personal anecdotes to support your position and demanded "actual studies" to refute your position.

I do not think you are truly interested in changing your mind.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by infinity0 on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:46PM (#10493549)
I provided personal anecdotes in response to other personal anecdotes. The point is to show that these types of arguments are flawed - of course I won't change my mind in response to others' anecdotes, when my own are different - will you?
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by zxcvcxz on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:26PM (#10493870)
What I find strange is that no one ever has to be trained to use a smartphone.

>discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-tweak-tool."

This is disingenuous, they would just install it through the app store like on a phone.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by sremani on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:06PM (#10493127)
We are talking about Government Offices here. The UX difference between Word and LibreOffice is noticeable. People need retraining, no matter how facsimile both are. Its matter of productivity.
Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by bad_user on Monday November 02, 2015 @01:27PM (#10493874)
Microsoft Office switched to the Ribbon, being a huge UI overhaul, yet people, companies and institutions still switched.

Yes, the UI is different, but the concepts you're dealing with are still the same and if you know the concepts then a new UI is just a small and temporary inconvenience, rather then a barrier.

The biggest problem will actually be incompatibilities, which happen for example with advanced usage of Excel documents, but you know, in such cases it's better to switch to portable formats that work across multiple products (i.e. ODF) and it's better to do it sooner rather than later, because as a freaking government you should keep your documents accessible for everybody. And if you switch to portable formats and a set of features supported in both Microsoft Office and LibreOffice, you don't even have to move everybody to LibreOffice at once. So on the whole I feel that this is a red herring.

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by sandworm101 on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:22PM (#10493300)
>We are talking about Government Offices here. [...] People need retraining.

Why do government workers always need formal retraining? Every job i've ever worked involved constant intake of new skills without dropping tools and attending a class. For a new OS in an office environ that generally boils down to "Here is your new OS. Play around with the colours if you want, but that memo is still due Thursday."

Re:Indian Government adopts an open source policy by m0v_eax on Monday November 02, 2015 @12:58PM (#10493648)
Your anecdotal evidence is hardly the norm.