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Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by nickff on Saturday October 31, 2015 @01:46PM (#10483414)
What if arbitration clauses are not a problem at all? There is a great deal of contradictory evidence with respect to whether arbitration is more or less favorable to consumers and employees (though it is definitely very bad for class-action lawyers). But even if we assume for the purpose of argument that consumers always lose disputes which are arbitrated, they may be willing to make that trade in exchange for reduced prices on goods and services, as well as higher salaries.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by bmh_ca on Saturday October 31, 2015 @02:18PM (#10483543)
I was a class action lawyer for several years.

There is a great deal of definitive evidence that arbitration clauses undermine the purposes of class proceedings, those purposes being:

1. increased access to justice (i.e. one may be automatically included in a successful claim, as opposed to seeking prospective reward through a potentially lengthy and expensive adjudication);

2. lowering of overall cost of adjudication (i.e. many issues may be resolved at once, at lower expense to the plaintiffs, defendant, and the courts); and

3. behavioural correction (i.e. raise the likelihood of bad behaviour by corporations resulting in monetary consequence).

Contracting-away class procedural rights can undermine point #1 and #3. Most people do not litigate even when they have an excellent chance of success, and behavioural correction requires a certain percentage of individuals to bring and succeed in their cases. The percentage who tend to litigate, and whom can be confidentially settled with out of court, are empirically a fraction the aggregate exposure from a class proceeding.

Which is all to say, arbitration clauses are not a problem if you do not feel like corporations should have monetary consequence for bad behaviour. This is certainly good for the people who own the corporations.

There is a problem, whether perceived or real, of "lottery ticket litigation" where plaintiff class action lawyers receive a large payout on success. Certainly one wants to incentivize capable lawyers to take on hard and speculative projects by dangling good returns, but in the case of class actions I have always thought of it more as a public interest litigation. There should be an incentive to succeed, but properly employed class proceedings can have a substantial public benefit. Lottery litigation can attract the wrong lawyers, though in my experience there is a fairly wide spectrum. On the other hand, public service class proceedings have their own set of distinct issues.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by bradleyjg on Saturday October 31, 2015 @04:57PM (#10484185)
>> behavioural correction requires a certain percentage of individuals to bring and succeed in their cases

No it doesn't. Both the extensive use of the class form and punitive damages (or close substitutes) are virtually unique to the United States. Ad hoc regulation by an entrepreneurial plaintiff's bar acting without meaningful client input is not the not the only effective means to regulate businesses. On the contrary, plenty of countries arguably do a better job without the use of them at all.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by wpietri on Saturday October 31, 2015 @05:53PM (#10484373)
The US is also uniquely suited to business innovation. I think that's no coincidence. Depending upon after-the-fact class action instead of up-front regulation means more focus on actual harm than fear of harm.

I also broadly wouldn't trust the US to be particularly good at government regulation until our elections are publicly funded. There's a lot of evidence that our legislation is distorted towards the interests of the moneyed. I don't think that's a recipe for energetic, effective business regulation.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by bmh_ca on Monday November 02, 2015 @10:16PM (#10497212)
> >> behavioural correction requires a certain percentage of individuals to bring and succeed in their cases

> No it doesn't.

It is necessary for class proceedings to induce behavioural modification, which is what we are talking about here. There are other means to bring about behavioural correction, but that was beyond the scope of my comments.

> Both the extensive use of the class form and punitive damages (or close substitutes) are virtually unique to the United States.

At least a dozen states have class procedures, but you may be right on punitive damages. Canada is quite close, but punitive measures are handed out sparingly.

>> Ad hoc regulation by an entrepreneurial plaintiff's bar acting without meaningful client input is not the not the only effective means to regulate businesses.

I partially agree; class proceedings are a poor substitute for regulation. However, a few points. First, in tandem with victim compensation and reduced litigation costs, some argue the behavioural modification aspect from financial consequence can act as a check-and-balance that requires no arbitrary intervention by the government to correct and prevent wrongdoing.

Second, class action are procedural in nature and the substance of the case must be founded on existing laws – often common law torts, but sometimes regulatory or administrative. The cost of enforcement via a class proceeding is relieved from the public purse, and no additional rights are conferred on victims by way of a class proceeding – only the vehicle for exercising those rights is modified.

Third, regulators are often not as aligned with victims as plaintiff lawyers in class proceedings. It is not unheard of, and in some places quite common, for regulators to be hired by the very institutions they are charged with regulating.

Moreover, one can gauge the effectiveness of the class proceeding in behavioural modification by observing the broad resistance to it, namely the widespread introduction of arbitration clauses. Perhaps not the behaviour it was intended to modify, but that itself speaks to the point.

> On the contrary, plenty of countries arguably do a better job without the use of them at all.

I tend to agree, depending on the circumstances, but it is a hotly contested point.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by guelo on Saturday October 31, 2015 @05:17PM (#10484237)
How do those other countries do it?
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by bradleyjg on Saturday October 31, 2015 @05:22PM (#10484253)
Public sector regulators drawing a salary and answerable (at least in theory) to democratically elected bosses and ultimately the people.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by makomk on Saturday October 31, 2015 @05:42PM (#10484325)
From what I've seen, the US already has pretty aggressive public sector regulation in most areas, more than we seem to have over here in the UK these days. It's still not a complete solution because regulators don't have the resources to be everywhere at once.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by raj_o on Saturday October 31, 2015 @02:06PM (#10483496)
They are a problem now. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is a one sided contract. Can you ever envision a contract solely drafted by one side to be beneficial to both sides?

The only contradictory 'evidence' is talk about why it's better; that is, companies claim it's an easier and cheaper process. They fail to mention that what they mean is, it's easier and cheaper to them.

As a consumer, I want the laws to be written by my elected politician, don't you? Sure, there's a lot of unfairness to it. But I can't imagine a selfish corporation, one that keeps claiming their only loyalty is the the share holder, will do much better.

Just one example. You know VWs recent emission scandal? In the USA those people signed not only an arbitration agreement, but one that disallows class actions. You won't hear the problems that arbitration is causing because those problems won't make it to a court of law to be a problem.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by fineman on Saturday October 31, 2015 @03:42PM (#10483898)
Mandatory arbitration is great for you - that why I'm insisting it's in the contact!

Honestly!

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by jcfrei on Saturday October 31, 2015 @01:58PM (#10483471)
That's a good point. One could just argue that in time consumers will just favor contracts with companies that either don't have arbitration clauses or if they do the consumer doesn't care anyway about losing potential disputes. I think it's only really a problem when a company holds a (quasi) monopoly in a certain business. Like telcos do in the US in many states.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by wpietri on Saturday October 31, 2015 @05:56PM (#10484380)
One could argue that. But markets are mainly good at solving problems that occur frequently and with short feedback loops. The sort of problems that lead to class action lawsuits are rarely either, let alone both.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by mark-r on Saturday October 31, 2015 @11:09PM (#10485273)
You're assuming there will be a choice. A successful strategy tends to be copied. I doubt that any of the companies forcing you to agree to an arbitration clause have competitors that don't.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by marcosdumay on Saturday October 31, 2015 @02:54PM (#10483678)
Well, no, society can no accept that people wave their basic rights away on a contract, even if those people think it's a good deal.

Slavery waits on the end of this route.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by nommm-nommm on Saturday October 31, 2015 @04:10PM (#10484002)
Shady landlords try this all the time.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by giaour on Saturday October 31, 2015 @06:26PM (#10484473)
In New York (and, for all I know, everywhere else -- IANAL), city laws prevent you from signing away certain rights in a lease because shady landlords kept sneaking waivers in. For example, you can legally withhold rent if your landlord does not keep your property in a livable state. Many leases have provisions specifically waiving your right to withhold rent, but such provisions are legally enforceable.

There could be a similar law preventing anyone from signing away rights we deem too important to jeopardize.

Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by gkop on Saturday October 31, 2015 @06:57PM (#10484566)
Did you mean "legally unenforceable"?
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by giaour on Saturday October 31, 2015 @11:30PM (#10485310)
Yup.
Re:Arbitration Everywhere, Stacking the Deck of Justice by nommm-nommm on Monday November 02, 2015 @02:04PM (#10494197)
Imagine if such a lease was enforceable (its not) - it would render all landlord tenant laws null and void!