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Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by adrr on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:11PM (#10474316)
Server logs are missing important information like screen resolution, navigator.language etc. Server logs also can't report on element events. Nor does it work with things like single page apps. How can developers make their apps better without having the proper analytics to do so?
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by _hyn3 on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:29PM (#10474457)
We're dropping all third party domains at Userify [1] (plug: SSH key management software for EC2), but for reasons of both security and privacy.

What would happen to your website (or millions of websites) if one of the CDN's that you rely on started quietly issuing evil code to a few, targeted users? Would you notice? Would your users?

I don't think that it'd be too hard for us to add a simple API call that pokes data about screen resolution, browser agent string, language, etc upon load or login, and it'll be far more efficient and private than us sending random data off to GA or similar where they frequently don't even provide us IP addresses of our own site visitors so that we can correlate the data against our own logs.

The data that GA gathers is highly valuable... to Google. They only provide you visibility of the tippy tip of the iceberg.. but ultimately it's your customers' and your data, not theirs.

Don't compromise your users with third-party includes, even Google Fonts (which is still our last holdout on the website.. hm, someone should make a simple web app that gathers names and styles of fonts and provides a zip w/ pre-generated CSS.)

CDN's sound great but they're a huge privacy hole. Ask yourself; what's the profit model? Are they really just an opportunity to gather valuable data on other people's websites and browsing habits? (yes).

Please don't leak your customers' data.

1. https://Userify.com

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by WA on Thursday October 29, 2015 @06:19PM (#10474785)
Same here. I never really used third party domain software. I used Google Fonts for a while, but I find it pathetic to have some font files and some CSS loaded from a different server than mine. Google Fonts (and every CDN) can be a lot slower than my own server. Sometimes, the site hangs while "waiting for google.com". Silly.

Also, Google Fonts might be Google Analytics in disguise. Who knows.

I use Piwik for tracking, but the self-hosted version. I don't even use newsletter services. I bought a cheap newsletter plugin for Wordpress which I use as an autoresponder email course.

But delivery is all that matters they say. And yet, all Mailchimp and Aweber and whatnot goes 100% to my spam folder automatically. I believe the delivery argument is a myth.

The best part: Decision making is much easier. "So, your product can't be installed on my own server? Bad luck, I won't become your customer."

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by nacs on Thursday October 29, 2015 @08:55PM (#10475542)
> I used Google Fonts for a while, but I find it pathetic to have some font files and some CSS loaded from a different server than mine

You can have the fonts and not have any requests leave your site by using something like this[1]. It downloads the Google font data so you can serve the font files and CSS from your own site.

https://github.com/majodev/google-webfonts-helper

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by Wilya on Thursday October 29, 2015 @11:20PM (#10475990)
In theory, the point of Google Fonts is that it does user-agent sniffing to adapt the font and css to the user's browser, to get the best rendering. You would lose that advantage by hosting the fonts yourself.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by WA on Friday October 30, 2015 @05:34AM (#10476872)
In practice, I'd set up the CSS such that modern browsers render it beautifully and give a crap about older browsers. Or make a CSS for older browsers without that font.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by WA on Friday October 30, 2015 @05:36AM (#10476878)
That's great, thank you :)
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by thedufer on Thursday October 29, 2015 @11:55PM (#10476079)
> What would happen to your website (or millions of websites) if one of the CDN's that you rely on started quietly issuing evil code to a few, targeted users? Would you notice? Would your users?

Most of ours would. Subresource Integrity means that all of our Firefox and Chrome users would get mostly blank pages if our CDN tried to pull anything. It's really hard to justify dropping our CDN when they do so much for our load times for people outside of the US (where our servers are located).

> Ask yourself; what's the profit model?

Well, we pay them, so I kinda thought it was obvious. I suppose they could be selling data as well, but it doesn't seem like a great strategy to endanger so much of their userbase when there's already a clear and profitable monetization model.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by snowwrestler on Thursday October 29, 2015 @07:26PM (#10475196)
> What would happen to your website (or millions of websites) if one of the CDN's that you rely on started quietly issuing evil code to a few, targeted users?

What would happen if EC2 started quietly issuing evil code to a few, targeted users? Would you notice? Would your users?

What would happen if Digital Ocean started quietly issuing evil code to a few, targeted users? Would you notice? Would your users?

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by lcswi on Thursday October 29, 2015 @07:34PM (#10475238)
Great questions. People should host themselves.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by neilellis on Thursday October 29, 2015 @10:25PM (#10475800)
In their own garage too!
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by hrbrtglm on Thursday October 29, 2015 @09:56PM (#10475724)
> hm, someone should make a simple web app that gathers names and styles of fonts and provides a zip w/ pre-generated CSS

I used http://www.localfont.com to retrieve the Open Sans font I was previously using from google font. Maybe that's the kind of webapp you are looking for.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by frik on Friday October 30, 2015 @02:14AM (#10476372)
What about application performance monitoring? Usual SaaS solutions use tracking solutions similar to Google Analytics (and are blocked by ad blockers).
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by lifeisstillgood on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:48PM (#10474597)
All third party domains - wonderful :-). Please tell us more - would like to follow suit (am revamping my site. Where I have a different privacy protection strategy - no-one ever visits so no privacy loss)
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by roel_v on Thursday October 29, 2015 @07:05PM (#10475056)
What are you asking? How to host your own css/jquery etc?

(sorry if I'm an annoying old fart in the rest of this remark but I went back to desktop software 15 years ago (yes that sounds weird) and the last 2-4 years I have more and more troubles understanding discussions on modern web development as everything that was once considered Very Bad is now not only encouraged, but taken as the natural state of affairs - e.g. javascript for core functionality, the 'css is bad, do it in javascript' movement, 'semantic markup should not even be attempted', 'frontend frameworks', ...)

So yeah my question is not sarcastic, I'm just asking for some context.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by lifeisstillgood on Thursday October 29, 2015 @09:39PM (#10475668)
Well partly I'm asking the same question - what am I missing? CSS and other CDN based stuff I get, but hosting my own analytics? Where does one start - what can be measured, what is worth measuring? What else is done on these 10MB JS downloads we all get these days?

I suppose there is a job of work to be done downloading the top 1Million web sites and seeing what crap comes through the door - but would be nice to know what the OP is replacing and with what so I know what is derigeur these days

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by roel_v on Friday October 30, 2015 @12:05AM (#10476106)
Oh OK then we're on the same page and I don't have much advise.

Maybe just that you can look at Piwik analytics - open source and you can host it yourself.

Html/dynamic pages, images, CSS, js, fonts, analytics all from the same server (or at least same domain), and as much squashed together to avoid requests, that was the 'best practice' when I was still 'current'. I don't really understand either what else there would be.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by downandout on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:16PM (#10474354)
You can certainly obtain this information with your own javascript and record it on your own server. Combine it with your server logs and you have can most of the same information you would have had from GA or another hosted solution.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by jamiesonbecker on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:36PM (#10474523)
Agreed! but s/most/all/g FTFY :)

Actually, GA only provides you with a [meager] subset of the data that Google gathers. Now it's their data.. not yours, and not your customers. They won't even give up IP addresses so that you can check it against your own logs.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by icoder on Thursday October 29, 2015 @06:00PM (#10474667)
Yes, and although that would remedy some of the tracking/privacy concerns with GA, the (grand)parent comment's concern with bandwidth would not be solved but transformed when taking the road you describe.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by natarius4k on Thursday October 29, 2015 @07:12PM (#10475106)
I have build myself a little rails gem to help with that: https://github.com/KaktusLab/sql_metrics
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by mhw on Thursday October 29, 2015 @07:43PM (#10475288)
I've had pretty good experiences so far with Ahoy - https://ankane.github.io/ahoy/
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by blumkvist on Friday October 30, 2015 @03:41AM (#10476559)
AFAIK, you can use even use google's javascript library.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 29, 2015 @10:29PM (#10475816)
> How can developers make their apps better without having the proper analytics to do so?

Of course. They can just ask people.

Let's not pretend that all this data is for developers. It's only for a) advertisers to shit more on your users, and b) sales to micromanage the site into getting more conversions, usually at the cost of utility.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by pferde on Friday October 30, 2015 @05:01AM (#10476784)
That's good, you have no business knowing my screen resolution, browser language nor lot of other information. You just feel entitled to have them, for some unfathomable reason.

Just prepare your web{site,app} and have the webserver serve it to my browser. If it is too large for my screen, my browser has these newfangled things called scrollbars to deal with it, and I will see that my screen is too small to comfortably view content you graciously share with me.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by JupiterMoon on Friday October 30, 2015 @07:17AM (#10477174)
I couldn't agree more. Why can't web developers produce websites that just serve clean standards compliant html+css(+/-javascript where really need -- no highjacking scrolling is not a good use for javascript) and trust my browser to display it how I like it?
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by JupiterMoon on Friday October 30, 2015 @07:18AM (#10477177)
> How can developers make their apps better without having the proper analytics to do so?

The same way as desktop developers do. Test things yourself and get you mother (or some non-techy person) to try it out and see how much she/he swears when attempting to use it.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by icebraining on Saturday October 31, 2015 @09:29AM (#10482575)
The same way as desktop developers do.

Well, did - I regret to tell you that desktop developers are now using analytics as well, using stuff like DeskMetrics and Trackerbird.

Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by belorn on Friday October 30, 2015 @03:50AM (#10476579)
As someone mentioned below, there is self-hosted solutions to analytics tools like the free software project piwik. Nothing the app development process require that you send your customer data to a third-party for collection and processing.
Re:Ad Blockers Are Also Changing the Game for SaaS and Web D... by TazeTSchnitzel on Thursday October 29, 2015 @05:15PM (#10474352)
Store that info and bundle it into the next request.