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Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by mgraczyk on Monday October 26, 2015 @02:39AM (#10449880)
I doubt that people became more utilitarian as they became more drunk. A simpler explanation is the participants answered the questions using the same altered thinking drunk people use to choose their own behavior; They think far less than normal about the social consequences of their actions.

You don't want to flip the trolley switch in part because you feel more likely to be blamed for the outcome, or to be held accountable for making the wrong decision. After drinking a bit of alcohol, it is easier to forget about how others will perceive your actions and instead think about the physical consequences of the actions themselves.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by gajomi on Monday October 26, 2015 @04:05AM (#10450049)
This is, of course, exactly correct and gets at the essence of what always bothered me about the trolley problem. The problem is usually presented with the idea that it offers some insight into how typical human behavior is seemingly at odds with utilitarian concept of the "value" of an individual or groups of human lives. The fact that the switch puller might be subject to some kind of judgement for their actions is typically ignored, but this is almost certainly a huge part of any effective hedonistic calculus that humans may or may not be engaged in.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by hugh4 on Monday October 26, 2015 @04:36AM (#10450118)
Not just the social judgment, but also the judgment of your own conscience.

Whether it's rational or not, I'm going to spend less time awake at night for the rest of my life worrying about the multiple people I allowed to get run over by a train than I'm gonna spend worrying about the one person I actively caused to get run over by a train.

Come to think of it, I suppose that heavily discounting the possibility of future regret is also something that drunk people tend to do.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by ant6n on Monday October 26, 2015 @08:06AM (#10450803)
This problem is kinda contrived anyway.

Why would I be sitting in front of that switch? Do I actually know for sure that flipping that switch will have the described outcome? If I'm some sort of passerby who happens to be there, then I certainly wouldn't know that for sure, and I would just be futzing around with railway operations I'm not trained to engage in. I could make matters worse! So it's probably better to leave the switch alone rather than potentially causing even more harm. Try to yell at the people on the tracks to get out of the way, and call it a day.

If you do know operations, and you are at the right place operating machinery you're trained to do; then part of your training may have involved how to deal with this hypothetical situation. So it's probably best to keep on your railway operations hat and defer to your training, rather than putting on your philosopher's hat and think deeply about the implications of your actions.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by VLM on Monday October 26, 2015 @10:13AM (#10451545)
>So it's probably better to leave the switch alone rather than potentially causing even more harm.

More formally there's two cultural issues that the philosophers more or less refuse to deal with and instead claim inherent biological instinct or whatever.

One is we've been indoctrinated for better or worse with a deference toward specialists via all kinds of morality tales and drama. You shouldn't tell a doctor how to doctor, or a laborer how to labor, according to a zillion dramatic morality tales. Its deeply hardwired into the culture itself. Therefore its culturally wrong to mess with a railway workers switchgear unless you're a railway worker, which you probably are not. You can daydream all you want about possibly knowing how to operate railroad gear, but according to doctrine if you were a railworker, you're supposed to be pretty pissed off if some random member of the general public disrespects your entire field of employment by flipping switches. No matter your real or theoretical employment, we're indoctrinated to leave those switches alone.

The next deeply indoctrinated belief is people are conservative about what they know best. Obviously you know nothing about railway operations, or at least less than the guy assigned to operate that switch. Clearly someone who knows what they're doing set the switch that way for a reason, so if I operate that switch I'm almost certain to be doing something wrong because the guy assigned to it felt he was doing right. In part two of the classic telling, clearly the fat guy knows he's not fat enough to stop the train by lying on the tracks so he didn't jump on them by himself therefore pushing him on the tracks is just going to increase the death toll. The only people who want to upend the cart are actual experts, arrogant, or insane, at least according to cultural myth.

Its possibly in a different culture we'd get totally different results. Maybe in a video game where its "make believe" and not in our culture, you'd get different results. Someone should try these scenarios in minecraft and then compare/contrast results.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by scrumper on Monday October 26, 2015 @01:30PM (#10452864)
It's not supposed to be about railway switches or some concrete scenario, it's a model of a problem designed to gain some understanding about how people make moral decisions. By saying all that, you're refusing to engage with it at all.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by ant6n on Monday October 26, 2015 @02:26PM (#10453337)
The scenario is given to give our brains some concrete situation to think about, because asking 'would kill one to save five' is not something we can apparently relate to. The problem is that the decision making model in my brain, moral or not, is not trained for dealing with life or death situations. So I cannot relate at all, and in the end this test doesn't measure anything useful.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by Lawtonfogle on Monday October 26, 2015 @10:11AM (#10451525)
You'll see this behavior in government with far less drastic results. A lot of bureaucratic cruff that builds up is recognized by workers as being such. The government workers do realize just how silly and time consuming the policies are. And many have ideas on how to improve them and speed things up.

But no one wants to do anything because any wrong that happens will then be blamed on them. So if there are 10 issues a day caused by bad policy, and you can change it to only be 5 incidents a day, no one is going to push for changing it because then they would be viewed as responsible for the 5 incidents instead of being viewed as reducing the incident count by 5.

You pull the switch to kill one to save 5, you have now directly acted to kill a person. You are a killer, and while perhaps not legally a murderer, some will still view you as such. That you save 5 is irrelevant.

To see an even strong example of this behavior, consider some action that is even more offensive to the common sensibilities that killing someone, such as certain forms of child abuse. Now imagine a situation where by doing that to one child, you can stop it being done to N others. (Worry not about the details of how such a situations could occur, I'm sure some creative individual could find a back story.)

Now imagine how someone who chooses the utilitarian choice is going to be viewed. Perhaps we should be doing tests not about what the subject would choose, but about how the subject would view another's choices.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 26, 2015 @03:50PM (#10453947)
>To see an even strong example of this behavior, consider some action that is even more offensive to the common sensibilities that killing someone, such as certain forms of child abuse. Now imagine a situation where by doing that to one child, you can stop it being done to N others. (Worry not about the details of how such a situations could occur, I'm sure some creative individual could find a back story.)

Use this thing: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-231

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by nickodell on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:52AM (#10450551)
You can slightly change the context of the problem, and it entirely changes the character of responses:

Imagine you're an accountant working for the government. You choose how medical research funds are spent. One day, you notice that there are two equally expensive programs: Program A, which will save one life next year, and Program B, which could save five lives next year.

Program A is being funded, but Program B isn't. Program B could be funded if you took all of the funding from program A and diverted it.

Do you divert the funds?

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by lm______ on Monday October 26, 2015 @08:15AM (#10450841)
This scenario is slightly different though. It doesn't explicitly preclude the possibility that if funds are diverted to program B, that the one person being saved by program A might also be saved under program B, plus an additional four others.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by Retra on Monday October 26, 2015 @12:32PM (#10452469)
There is a clear inefficiency in diverting the funds. It takes effort and money to change an already-active process.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by r00fus on Monday October 26, 2015 @02:00PM (#10453090)
What's the cost of switching? What are the respective probabilities of success? What about the possibility that a switch might lead to both projects failing?

Distilling real-life into utilitarianism scenarios is fraught with reductionism - there are many factors that drive people's decisions and those all add up.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by jasonkostempski on Monday October 26, 2015 @09:41AM (#10451307)
But there are 2 parts to the thought experiment. This seems just like the "flip the switch" scenario, which most people say they would do.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by sokoloff on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:36AM (#10450713)
> two equally expensive programs: Program A, which will save one life next year, and Program B, which could save five lives next year.

For me, it depends on the chances of "could save five lives" and the cost of the program.

If the chance of "could save 5" is under 20%, no, you don't divert the funds.

If the total expense of the program is over some threshold per life saved, and there is another opportunity, C, elsewhere to expend those funds with a better outcome (more lives saved/extended/improved), you defund both A & B in favor of that other program.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by barrkel on Monday October 26, 2015 @08:00AM (#10450784)
I would expect that probability has already been factored into the numbers at this level of decision.

If you're e.g. making a change to road signage, you wouldn't start out with the total number of KSIs, you'd be looking at the potential reduction in KSIs. Similarly, if you're looking at a medical intervention, you'd be measuring a probability-adjusted delta in QALYs (in the UK).

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by sokoloff on Monday October 26, 2015 @08:16AM (#10450846)
Yes, I agree that's how it should be done.

The question specifically used certain language for one branch and uncertain language for the other, so I replied to the question as asked rather than strawmanning an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by chc on Monday October 26, 2015 @01:48PM (#10453001)
I think that's because one was a statement of present reality (the program is currently doing this), whereas the other was a hypothetical (if could do this if we funded it).
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by sokoloff on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:04PM (#10455122)
Thanks. I now see that as a possible reading. I read it only as a statement of uncertainty.

s/could/would/ would have eliminated the ambiguous reading.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by nickodell on Tuesday October 27, 2015 @07:50PM (#10462021)
Ack, sorry. The two programs are equally likely to save lives, but one is currently funded, and the other isn't. That's the reason for the would/could distinction.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by eli_gottlieb on Monday October 26, 2015 @03:46PM (#10453928)
>You don't want to flip the trolley switch in part because you feel more likely to be blamed for the outcome, or to be held accountable for making the wrong decision. After drinking a bit of alcohol, it is easier to forget about how others will perceive your actions and instead think about the physical consequences of the actions themselves.

That is exactly consequentialist thinking, though. Choosing your actions based on social signalling in life-or-death situations is a really bad idea.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by sophacles on Monday October 26, 2015 @10:10AM (#10451522)
This explanation doesn't seem to fit the drunk driving problem though - it seems that with the level of "drunk driving causes a lot of fatal accidents" knowledge in the world, there would be much less of it, if the above explanation was true.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by mamon on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:55AM (#10450567)
More easily explained as: "alcohol shuts down emotions, so the logic is all that remains"
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by mgraczyk on Monday October 26, 2015 @06:57AM (#10450573)
I don't think alcohol shuts down emotions. Anecdotally speaking, alcohol seems to enhance feelings of anger and happiness in certain individuals.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by mamon on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:26AM (#10450672)
Isn't shutting down emotions the main reason why people drink alcohol in the first place? You get dumped by a girl - you drink. You get fired from the job - you go to a bar for a few shots. Your favorite basketball team loses the match - you get a beer or two. That's why the main part of rehab for alcoholics is learning how to deal with emotions without drinking.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by johnchristopher on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:43AM (#10450737)
You started with `people' in mind en ended up with `alcoholics'. Most people don't end up alcoholic and so don't drink to shut down emotions.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by Lewton on Monday October 26, 2015 @08:09AM (#10450821)
You get married - You celebrate with a party and alcohol

You get promoted - You celebrate by going to a bar to have a few shots

Your favorite basketball team wins a match - you celebrate by getting hammered

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by Retra on Monday October 26, 2015 @12:36PM (#10452499)
It sounds like you've learned about drinking habits from TV and not from real life.
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by eivarv on Monday October 26, 2015 @09:40AM (#10451296)
I think it's fair to say that many people with emotional problems or mental illness try to use alcohol (or another substance) as a coping mechanism – which is not a good idea.

Most people don't drink to shut down emotions, however.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by angersock on Monday October 26, 2015 @12:16PM (#10452345)
Some people actually just like the taste of various things.

Some other people enjoy the socialization places like bars and whatnot have.

Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by spacemanmatt on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:34AM (#10450697)
Does an angry drunk seem shut down to you?
Re:The Cold Logic of Drunk People (2014) by ajuc on Monday October 26, 2015 @07:52AM (#10450768)
Not my experience.