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Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by akamaka on Monday October 05, 2015 @04:34PM (#10334710)
The rest of the commenters are quick to dismiss this article as presenting scapegoats, but I'm very keen to see more in-depth investigation about how this was orchestrated.

There are a lot of different ways that this type of cheating can develop over time, and simply saying "lots of people knew must have known about this" isn't very satisfying to me.

There are plenty of ways that upper management can stay in the dark. In the case of Deepwater Horizon, BP didn't make the decisions that lead to the blowout, but created excessive pressure for cost-cutting. In the case of Barings Bank, the managers were genuinely unaware of the rogue trader's fraud, but allowed him to bypass internal controls.

There are important lessons that will come out of the VW case and I'm very interested to learn them. The dismissiveness of the comments here is really disappointing, on the other hand.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by ecdavis on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:05PM (#10335345)
It seems like the majority of people saying these are scapegoats didn't read the article that closely. It clearly says these two engineers were top aides to the former CEO.

Regulator's aren't stupid enough to be fooled by a couple of junior engineers being offered up as a sacrifice. They'll definitely go after the highest-level people they can get.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by mironathetin on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:41AM (#10337492)
These two are not junior engineers. And I doubt that only two people knew about it. If Volkswagen developed diesel engines for the US market and problems arise to meet the requirements these problems have certainly not been solved in a dark back room, over a beer by two engineers. This must have been a topic on a high level. And also the solution must have been discussed.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by TickleMeHellNo on Monday October 05, 2015 @11:50PM (#10336668)
>Regulator's aren't stupid enough to be fooled by a couple of junior engineers being offered up as a sacrifice. They'll definitely go after the highest-level people they can get.

Maybe in a just world. I don't hold out too much hope.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by runholm on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:01AM (#10337343)
Well, this time the German government is pissed. There are powerful people at both ends this time.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by mironathetin on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @05:03AM (#10337564)
I think everybody is pissed. Just look at the message: They could not solve a technical problem, so they cheated. Every German engineer must be pissed. And everybody who has to explain, that this is not German industry standard. (at least I hope it is not)
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by jandrese on Monday October 05, 2015 @07:34PM (#10335748)
A top aide to the CEO sounds like exactly the kind of person who would be the fall guy in a scandal like this. Important enough for the regulators to be happy, but not someone who has actual power in the company.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by ecdavis on Monday October 05, 2015 @08:28PM (#10336007)
> not someone who has actual power in the company.

Two men are named in the article. One is on the Audi board of management. The other is on the Porsche board of management.

I understand where the cynicism comes from, I really do, but it's exhausting to wade through all the uninformed naysaying in this discussion. The above information took me less than a minute to find.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by URSpider94 on Monday October 05, 2015 @11:36PM (#10336623)
Did you read the article? These two were "put in charge of R&D at Volkswagen." They were literally running the R&D department!
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by robbiep on Monday October 05, 2015 @10:49PM (#10336486)
The ceo has already fallen on his sword at volkswagon
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by petra on Monday October 05, 2015 @11:05PM (#10336524)
Not really. In a case like this people will likely go to jail, so resigning isn't a big deal.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by yAnonymous on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:37AM (#10337257)
* resigning with a 30 million payout
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by jandrese on Friday October 09, 2015 @01:29PM (#10361781)
I thought he just deployed his golden parachute before the shit hit the fan?
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by croon on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:47PM (#10335227)
>There are plenty of ways that upper management can stay in the dark. In the case of Deepwater Horizon, BP didn't make the decisions that lead to the blowout, but created excessive pressure for cost-cutting. In the case of Barings Bank, the managers were genuinely unaware of the rogue trader's fraud, but allowed him to bypass internal controls.

I read this as an exec saying: "Just get it done. I don't care how it's done, and I don't want to know how it's done, just do it."

May have watched too many movies, but whatever is more plausible is usually correct.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by HCIdivision17 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:45AM (#10336931)
As an engineer who worked in a couple plants and focused on QC and the like, I damn near have an allergic reaction when any level of management says something like that. I immediately assumed that sort of conversation took place, and it's a strong signal something unethical is afoot - or at least a call for something unethical. ("I'm not saying you should ignore the samples, but sometimes you get different results if you test again, you know?")
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by bitJericho on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:05AM (#10337353)
No kidding. And what a lot of people are missing is if the choice was to either cheat or walk, they should have walked.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by CrimsnBlade on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:06PM (#10335352)
These engineers seemed to have gained quite a reputation for their work, and were thought to be very valuable to VW. It's possible that the "lots of people" that should have known about the software simply trusted these engineers and their work to the extent that they didn't bother to inspect the software for flaws as closely as they should have.

I can't imagine something this important not having to go through multiple people for inspection. So of those people that are saying they "don't know", though it may be true, for some of them it was their job to know, I think that should (and probably is) being taken into account in the investigations.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by 5h on Monday October 05, 2015 @04:48PM (#10334818)
I wonder how differently the reaction here would be if the title/article didn't call them Engineers.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by fnordfnordfnord on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:02PM (#10335323)
>There are plenty of ways that upper management can stay in the dark.

If they knew about it, they were wrong. If the didn't know about it, they were derelict/incompetent in their duty to supervise, AKA, wrong.

> In the case of Deepwater Horizon, BP didn't make the decisions that lead to the blowout, but created excessive pressure for cost-cutting.

Oil drilling operations are very much different from any other company structure/hierarchy you are probably familiar with. BP's "Company Man" (Jobsite supervisor) made those decisions and BP gets to own the consequences. BP also made a lot of other poor decisions along the way, and afterward, which are also their responsibility. None of the parties comes out of the DWH disaster looking good, but BP gets primary responsibility, and they earned it.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by scott_s on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:16PM (#10335405)
I think you're approaching this from a justice angle: who is responsible, who should pay. I think akamaka is approaching this from a system perspective: what enabled this to happen, what can we change to avoid it?
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by mercurial on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:11AM (#10337373)
The rest of the commenters display the same corporatist mentality they usually complain about in other professional groups.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by electricblue on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:20PM (#10335044)
"we didn't know" is curiously not an excuse you can use in any other facet of human life except to exculpate rich people
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by ppod on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:30PM (#10335112)
In what other facet of human life would you be held responsible for something you had no knowledge of?
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by rodgerd on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:31PM (#10335490)
Try telling your accountant "I want to pay less tax and I don't care how you do it."

When you're audited, have fun claiming you didn't know that you were committing tax evasion.

Try buying something for a ridiculously low price down the pub. When the police come to take the stolen goods away, try claiming you didn't realise something selling for a tenth of its value was stolen.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by x3n0ph3n3 on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:34PM (#10335140)
Typically ignorance of the law is not an excuse when found disobeying it, and there are more laws than any reasonable person can know.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by vonmoltke on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:43PM (#10335200)
TO both x3n0ph3n3 and mkaziz:

Knowledge of the act, not knowledge of the law. There are very few contexts in which you can be punished for not knowing an illegal act took place, and they are all situations where you should have known but were negligent.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by 001sky on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:05PM (#10335349)
negligence casts a very wide remit, but applies mostly to professionals (ie, credentialed staff). general executives are granted considerable leeway with respect to negligence in many context it would appear through things like the 'business judgement rule', where bein incompetent is a legitimate excuse and not presumtive negligence. INAL but just throwing this out there for discussion to see some other sides of the issue.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by Gibbon1 on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:06PM (#10335353)
There is the fiduciary duty aspect in play here. If a the employee of a business does something criminal while conduction the companies business, then it's possible that the owners are victims as well. However if they willfully created incentives and benefited from said criminal actions, it's hard to how they are not perpetrators themselves.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by Pinckney on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:59PM (#10335612)
In warfare. A commander can be criminally liable for failing to prevent criminal actions by their subordinates. Most famously, Tomoyuki Yamashita. Or from the prosecution brief during Ernest Medina's trial:

>'When troops commit massacres and atrocities against the civilian population of occupied territory or against prisoners of war, the responsibility may rest not only with the actual perpetrators but also with the commander. Such a responsibility arises directly when the acts in question have been committed in pursuance of an order of the commander concerned. The commander is also responsible if he has actual knowledge, or should have knowledge, through reports received by h'un or through other means, that troops or other persons subject to his control are about to commit or have committed a war crime and he fails to take the necessary and reasonable steps to insure compliance with the law of war or to punish violators thereof.'

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by URSpider94 on Monday October 05, 2015 @11:29PM (#10336601)
As a parent, you can be held liable for crimes that your children commit.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by mkaziz on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:35PM (#10335142)
The Selective Service frequently reminds me that ignorance of the law is no excuse to break the law.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by ppod on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:47PM (#10335222)
As mentioned above, this case involves ignorance of the action, not ignorance of the law.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by x0x0 on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:27PM (#10335092)
Well, I believe that there will obviously be an effort to scapegoat some low level suckers, and, as such, the whole effort is garbage.

The basic principle is liar's reports are worthless. When reporters want to create a particular outcome (no executives should do hard time), what you end up with is fundamentally dishonest. And since we have reasonable doubts about the integrity of the investigation -- it's being performed by employees of the original deceivers -- the whole thing is garbage. You can't take it and unshade it a little bit; people who have proved their untrustworthiness simply cannot be trusted. Not just a little bit; not at all.

ps -- what constitutes a believable report? One done by criminal investigative services belonging to a country where the government doesn't own a major stake in the company being investigated.

Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by the_mitsuhiko on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:39PM (#10335165)
Neither of the people mentioned are low level suckers.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by x0x0 on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:43PM (#10335197)
they're not the ceo and/or board, are they?
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by jpdus on Monday October 05, 2015 @07:39PM (#10335770)
They are (/were). Not on the executive board of the Volkswagen Group, but on the executive board of the VW/Audi/Porsche brands.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by URSpider94 on Monday October 05, 2015 @11:38PM (#10336630)
They run (ran) R&D at Volkswagen. Whatever happened, happened under their watch.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by rqebmm on Monday October 05, 2015 @06:03PM (#10335334)
The CEO was already fired.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by x0x0 on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:37PM (#10341261)
what on earth does that have to do with assessing culpability?
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by venomsnake on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @02:34AM (#10337052)
My lifelong career goal is to become CEO and get fired with a golden parachute.
Re:Volkswagen Emissions Investigation Zeroes in on Two Engin... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:44PM (#10335204)
Well, if they are trying to find scapegoats then this is expected; you can't blame a few interns and hope people will buy it.