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Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by jtchang on Sunday October 04, 2015 @09:17PM (#10329519)
Why do people say it only takes 10 more minutes to make the food? They never factor in the time it takes to mentally prepare what you are going to make, go out and get ingredients, prep the food, then clean up afterwards. It is never just 10 more minutes.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by brandonmenc on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:24PM (#10329664)
> go out and get ingredients, prep the food, then clean up afterwards

Plan food for the whole week. Buy the ingredients in one trip. Clean as you cook.

Take one day a week to pre cook and freeze as much as possible. Cook three or four nights a week and eat leftovers for the remainder.

Build a repertoire of around ten meals you train yourself to bang out quickly and without thinking.

If you're cooking for your kids, make them help with the cooking and the clean up. (This is how I learned to cook.)

It's not rocket science.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by whistlerbrk on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:52PM (#10329729)
Seriously. CLEAN AS YOU COOK. It drives me insane that people don't get this. When I'm done with a meal I have a few plates to clean and maybe one pot. That's it though. Everything goes away when I'm cooking. Scraps constantly thrown in the compost. It makes you much more mentally organized.

It's an obvious source of fluster and stress for my friends who don't. They never seem to figure it out either. Even when I do it for them.

Plus. Stop determining what you want to eat first. Look at what you have in your fridge and learn to work with it. Have a few proteins and a few cheeses and kitchen basics and you can improvise many things.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by mhink on Monday October 05, 2015 @12:48AM (#10330022)
I figure the main difficulty lies in the "economics" part of "home economics". There's a huge efficiency difference between "cooking every day" and "only cooking occasionally". The only way to benefit from cooking at home is if you accept the ongoing cost of keeping essentials stocked. Then, you have to accept that you're going to waste a considerable amount of money and time while you're learning to cook. When I started, it sometimes took an hour or more to get food on the table because I hadn't figured out mise en place. Then, when I did, I ruined more than one dish because I lost track of things and something got overcooked or burnt. Finally, I've had a certain amount of food go to waste because of bad planning- perhaps I bought too much for the week, and then went shopping the next week without keeping the existing "stock" in mind.

These are all huge stumbling blocks- especially when it's so easy to just order take-out, which will at least be consistently edible, with the added bonus of not resulting in wasted ingredients.

What ultimately turned it around for me was when my girlfriend and I decided to fully commit to cooking at home, and went and spent $150 on groceries- but instead of buying ingredients, we bought pantry essentials. Flour, sugar, baling powder, baking soda, cornmeal, table and kosher salt, seasonings, potatoes, rice, pasta, and so on. Not to mention an initial stock of perishable basics: onions, garlic, lemons, limes, milk, butter, eggs, and cheese.

While it left a dent in our wallet at the time, it turned out to be a game-changer. We found that it was immensely easier to plan meals, because we already had half the ingredients of any given recipe.

This is a huge societal problem, in my opinion. I'm a pretty privileged dude when it comes down to it, and I was able to absorb the inefficiency of not being able to cook at home while still eating pretty healthy food. Furthermore, I was able to get over the hump of figuring out how to cook on my own, because I had the resources to absorb the inefficiency of learning how to do it.

What about the folks that can't?

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by brandonmenc on Monday October 05, 2015 @01:09AM (#10330066)
Most pantry essentials are only purchased once or twice a year. So, you just spend a year accumulating that stuff, and eat beans and rice in the meantime.

And you buy cheap. A jar of spice from McCormick might cost five bucks, but you can get the same amount in a plastic bag at the bodega for a dollar. And really, you don't need two kinds of salt.

If you're one of the fortunate poor, your immigrant parents/grandparents have already taught you how to cook.

It's really quite a foreign idea to me that cooking for yourself is expensive, even though I hear that all the time from people my age and younger. Maybe they all think you need to cook elaborate meals. But when you look at the way immigrants cook, it's really just a small set of cheap ingredients combined a bunch of different ways.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by exstudent2 on Monday October 05, 2015 @12:51PM (#10333067)
To be fair, the way most immigrants cook isn't really replicable by people who are working.

It may be cheap in terms of ingredients but in traditional immigrant households the mother and often grandmother don't have jobs and stay at home all day cooking. They use cheap ingredients but it's a TON of work.

When my wife's mom (who's not from the US) comes to visit, she starts cooking early in the morning and doesn't finish until dinner. It probably takes longer than it would if she had her flow setup since she has to prepare basics that we don't have ready, but still a lot of traditional dishes take a lot of time.

Things are often slow cooked for example because cheap cuts of meat are used and you need to do that to make them edible. Most office workers won't have time to do that.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by brandonmenc on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @03:37PM (#10341722)
> Things are often slow cooked

Buy a slow cooker (aka crock pot) and leave it running while you're at work.

> They use cheap ingredients but it's a TON of work.

Do this type of cooking for your meal bases in a single day.

In my house, mom worked 40 hours but would get a giant pot of red sauce and a giant pot of pasta e fagioli going on Saturday morning - maybe 30-60 minutes of prep, then all day to cook - unattended except for the occasional stir. This would yield enough soup and sauce for a week of dinners for a family of four - just add pasta.

Friends from other backgrounds describe similar techniques with things like refried beans, etc.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by Symbiote on Monday October 05, 2015 @03:05AM (#10330299)
Don't wealthier Americans learn these skills at college?

I learnt how to cook properly at university (UK). I'd watched my mum a fair amount growing up, and in the final few weeks before I left she showed me things like how to shallow fry chicken, or check it was cooked.

I ate takeaway on the day I arrived, since everyone was too drunk, but on Sunday I paired up with people living on the same floor and cooked with them for the rest of the year.

It cost a fraction of what takeaway food would have cost, and we weren't trying to be super cheap.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by morgante on Monday October 05, 2015 @08:13AM (#10331263)
> Don't wealthier Americans learn these skills at college?

No. The vast majority of college students I know don't cook. They either eat in dining halls or get take-out.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @04:29PM (#10342129)
> Don't wealthier Americans learn these skills at college?

Some learn while in college, but lots just buy a meal plan from the school or get takeout a lot (and/or "instant meals") and learn nothing about cooking.

> I'd watched my mum a fair amount growing up, and in the final few weeks before I left she showed me things like how to shallow fry chicken, or check it was cooked.

It seems to me lots of Americans don't get even this level of basics (and, with it, the confidence to actually be willing to try things in the kitchen) growing up, and that that's the problem.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by Symbiote on Monday October 05, 2015 @04:32AM (#10330500)
"Wealthy" was the wrong word — I meant anyone that goes to university, at least.

I emigrated six weeks ago, so I have to restart my "pantry essentials". I didn't buy everything in the first week, I will buy things gradually. I bought things like canned tomatoes, mixed herbs, pepper, salt; plus things that are used a lot quicker (rice, butter, noodles, onions, garlic). Last week I fancied Thai food, so I bought some fish sauce, lemongrass etc. It will take a year before I have all the spices and sauces I left behind.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by brandonmenc on Sunday October 04, 2015 @11:05PM (#10329768)
> Stop determining what you want to eat first. Look at what you have in your fridge and learn to work with it.

Yes, this.

Always have the essentials stocked for your repertoire.

I grew up Italian-American, so we always had: onions, garlic, lemon, parsley, green peppers, sausage, tomato paste, anchovies, pasta, a few types of beans, grated cheese, olive oil, balsamic, etc.

Add some random meats or fresh vegetables, and you've got like, a hundred different recipes right there.

> Seriously. CLEAN AS YOU COOK. It drives me insane that people don't get this.

So many, many people don't understand this. My mom DRILLED this into my head as a kid. When I'm cooking with a friend who doesn't clean as they cook, I usually just hand them a glass of wine and kick them out of the kitchen.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by cardamomo on Sunday October 04, 2015 @11:01PM (#10329759)
I second everything you're saying, but I recognize that cleaning as you cook, composting, stocking your kitchen smartly, and improvising menus are very difficult skills for many people to attain.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by dingaling on Monday October 05, 2015 @03:19AM (#10330324)
We do try to follow the aggregation approach in our household but it still averages out as the same amount of preparation time per meal; time required to prepare ingredients scales linearly with their volume.

plus it wipes-out one of our only two days off together.

Unless you have huge freezer space that can accommodate multi-week batches there's no real way around that.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by ebiester on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:51PM (#10329728)
This has always been weird for me. After a few days, the vegetables are not as fresh. Why would you buy Friday's vegetables on Sunday?

Then again, I'd say 40% of our grocery budget is vegetables, if not more. Perhaps we're not the average case.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by brandonmenc on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:56PM (#10329740)
There's nothing wrong with making a quick stop in the middle of the week to pick up leafy greens and other perishables. But quick is the key.

I also really like frozen vegetables - green beans, broccoli and cauliflower florets, etc. I don't understand the stigma against them, particularly if they're organic.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by moron4hire on Sunday October 04, 2015 @11:24PM (#10329824)
Vegetables take longer than a week to become inedible. It's the week-and-a-half mark where they start to get limp and questionable. It's the two-week mark where they start to rot completely. If you have a problem with rotting vegetables (bought from the grocery store, fresh out of a garden are much more durable), then you're keeping them longer than you think.

Meat goes bad much more quickly. If I'm not eating meat within two--maaaybe three--days of purchasing it, I will freeze it.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by Symbiote on Monday October 05, 2015 @05:17AM (#10330646)
Just before vegetables are approaching the rotting stage, they're still fine for a hearty soup. Scrub them if they're dirty, chop them into rough 1cm cubes, cook in a litre of stock, and blend (or not) when they're cooked.

Since I live alone, I tend to buy vegetables once a week, and meat on my way home if I'm sure I'll use it — I'm prone to wasting it otherwise. I go past at least four small supermarkets on my way home from work (30 minutes by bicycle). I have some frozen fish too, since it's quick to defrost, and bacon, since it keeps for ages. I have no problem making a vegetarian meal (chickpeas, tofu etc -- these keep indefinitely).

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Sunday October 04, 2015 @09:31PM (#10329550)
Blue Apron has been a revelation for us in this regard. We went from rarely eating lousy food together to frequently eating great food together. Even when I try to recreate the meals on my own it's a hassle.

Also, something like this can really help: http://www.buzzfeed.com/christinebyrne/clean-eating-2015

[deleted]
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by mratzloff on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:02PM (#10329610)
Your condescending comment missing the point. Not all of us live in "walkable neighborhoods of low-rise apartments with little shops on the first floor," nor necessarily want to. I live in a single family house in a residential area of Seattle. I'm pretty happy here, but I have to drive 10 minutes to one of a few nearby grocery stores. Grocery shopping is my least favorite thing to do on the planet, so if I can pay a service to do it for me and think up meals for me to cook, I'm sold.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @12:38AM (#10330000)
I didn't see the comment but sounds ill-informed. I can walk to Trader Joe's but that's not the point at all. First, it's figuring out what you want to eat. Then finding a recipe. Then getting the ingredients. Then figuring out the recipe since there's so much inconsistency on recipe quality. Etc. Blue Apron is $10/portion which is pretty reasonable. The recipes are easy to follow and fairly healthy. We don't get much choice but have been very pleased so far with all the meals for 6 months or so. I've picked a few which I can now prepare by myself with good results. One of the reasons I like Blue Apron vs Din (even though Din meals are much better) is that I actually do feel like I am learning to cook from scratch.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by rwmj on Monday October 05, 2015 @04:15AM (#10330461)
Then finding a recipe. Then getting the ingredients

This is the bit you're doing backwards. Type the ingredients you've got into Google, along with "recipe" and see what you fancy eating.

Now having said that, I do sympathize with posters who think cooking is time-consuming and hard. At the age of about 25 I specifically set about learning to cook, and it took me probably 5 years before I got good at it, and another 5 years before I was able to conjure a meal from bits and pieces of unpromising leftover ingredients.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by eropple on Monday October 05, 2015 @01:58AM (#10330163)
I'm glad it works for you, but $10/portion is crazy to me. I cook from scratch and average around $5/portion, and it adds up. (I cook in bulk a little more than Blue Apron wants you to, though, as it's mostly cooking for me.)
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @02:54AM (#10330281)
For something that approaches restaurant quality and might include beef, lamb, seafood or fresh pasta, it's a decent price point, imo. Hardly "crazy" I would say.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by rmxt on Monday October 05, 2015 @10:21AM (#10331956)
I used a referral sample for one shipment of meals for two. There was a choice of 3 out of 6 options for your shipment. There were seafood, beef, chicken, and three vegetarian options on the menu. However, you were restricted in your choice of three, and couldn't do {Beef, Chicken, Seafood}, which basically meant you would be paying $20 for a pasta dish for two, because you also couldn't pick {Beef, chicken, heartier non-meat option}. The total cost of ingredients was probably less than $15, maybe less than $10, for the pasta dish. It's hard to justify that as a value proposition in my book. Overall, the quality of the ingredients wasn't anything more special than what a local, non-budget, supermarket would carry in my market (NYC). (In fact, some of the labels on the ingredients seemed familiar from local delivery trucks in the area.) I agree with the GP: $10 a portion for a home cooked meal is expensive, <$5 is ideal. At $10 a portion, why make your own food, when you can get a gourmet healthy meal when you eat out?

When all was said and done, I felt that the best value proposition would be to just go on the Blue Apron website, look at the recipes, buy dry good ingredients in bulk, and make the recipes myself as time went on, buying the fresh ingredients as needed. As always, YMMV.

Edit: as many others have also pointed out, the packaging is "neat", and probably necessary for their workflow, but it feels ever so wasteful. You could supply a kindergarten arts and craft class with leftover materials from each shipment.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @12:34PM (#10332951)
I have never seen that you are forced to get a vegetarian option.

Where can you get a "gourmet healthy" email when eating out for $10? That would barely cover a Shake Burger + fries.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by rmxt on Monday October 05, 2015 @01:15PM (#10333243)
Well, if this was a one off occasion for forcing a pasta option, it possibly cost them a customer. If I picked two meats, I was forced the pasta option. I couldn't pick 2 meats + lentil option, or 2 meats + vegetable salad option. The pasta was good, but I felt a little cheated when I was forced to get it, especially at the hypothetical price of $10 per plate.

Perhaps it seemed that I suggested you could get a healthy meal + restaurant experience for under $10, but I was more thinking take-out options. Whole Foods' hot and cold (salad) buffet bar is like $9 per pound if I remember correctly. [1] Fairway, a competitor to Whole Foods in NYC, has a deli counter or buffet bar where you can get close to 1lb of veggies + grains + meat for under $10. [2] The only way Blue Apron makes sense over Fairway and Whole Foods, to me, is if you are either looking for the experience of cooking, or if you are a variety fiend and are going to tire of the flavors that the supermarkets use.

[1] https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/department/article/daily-me...

[2] https://www.fairwaymarket.com/content/uploads/06_05_15_REDHO... Scroll to the bottom: those build your own meal options are listed as sale prices, but they are representative for regular non-sale options too.

Bonus how-to maximize value at the salad bar: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/08/03/whole-foods-salad-b...

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @09:16PM (#10336204)
You're comparing a fresh meal from scratch to mystery mixes sitting under heat lamps for hours?

Wait, the Whole Foods salad with meat is more expensive. And the Fairway meals are as expensive or more for what looks like slop.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by rmxt on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @09:26AM (#10338681)
Do you really think that the ingredients that Whole Foods/Fairway uses are much different than what Blue Apron is shipping you? I have no illusions about Whole Foods being any more "organic" or "natural" than any other supermarket, but, if anything I would venture to say that they use the same, if not fresher, ingredients than what Blue Apron can get you. There's pretty much zero "mystery mix" factor associated with the cold salad bar at Whole Foods. I'm guessing you've never seen one of the Whole Foods hot buffets either, because it looks perfectly appetiizing every time I've gone there from 11am to 7pm. (Peak meal times)

Also, how do you figure that the Whole Foods "salad with meat" is more expensive? You're getting a pound of prepared food for $9: hot, cold, meat, vegetarian, salad, whatever you want. The Blue Apron portions do not contain a pound of food.

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=whole+foods+b...

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=fairway+deli

You seem pretty closed minded with respect to your meal planning. [1] Best of luck. Getting things delivered to you in 15 tiny little plastic baggies, with limited protein choices, seems pretty boring and ineffective to me, but, different strokes for different folks.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10330283

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:34PM (#10340698)
I've eaten the Whole Foods buffets dozens of times. Never for under $10/portion (even before tax). Absolutely it's tubs of slop with unknown ingredients that sit there for long periods of time under heat lamps. The article you cited said your preferred meal is going to be well over $10 unless you cut out the meat. Many people like Blue Apron specifically for the variety!! That they would never get at a buffet or cooking without help! Blue Apron meals are more than 1 lb of food.

I am quite open minded about my meal planning. I do Blue Apron, Din, Soylent, Caviar/fastbite, local delivery, Sprig, Munchery, Trader Joes pre-made and scratch, Whole Foods buffet, mall food court (we have a great one in SF), etc. My sense is that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Wednesday October 07, 2015 @01:01AM (#10344261)
From your link calling me closed minded about my meal planning:

"people fall into a few habitual meals"

"choose the meals based on what you have"

Goes without saying that you're pretty much dead wrong.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Tuesday October 06, 2015 @01:27PM (#10340612)
The only way that could happen is if you are blocking 1 of the 3 meats for that week. Otherwise, you will always be able to get 3 meat dishes every week.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by moron4hire on Monday October 05, 2015 @02:07AM (#10330178)
Figure out what you want to eat: generally, people fall into a few habitual meals, even when they're eating out all the time.

Finding a recipe: skip this. It's a waste of time. I haven't followed a recipe for anything that wasn't a cake in the last 15 years.

Getting the ingredients: you have the causality reversed. You choose the meals based on what you have, not what you will have based on what meals you want.

Figure out the recipe: see point #2, but also, recipes are extremely standardized. It's your failure to have learned the language that is the problem.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @02:54AM (#10330283)
That all sounds awful.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by matwood on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:50PM (#10329727)
I agree with you about grocery shopping being horrible. My local store offers an online service where I can pick what I want and just swing by and pick it up on the way home for a $5 fee. That has saved tons of time, but having to always think of things to cook can be annoying. I may give Blue Apron a shot and see how it works. It's just so easy to eat a frozen pizza or get take out instead of dealing the mental work of planning a meal after working all day.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by harryh on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:17PM (#10329640)
I live in Manhattan, one of the most walkable places in the US. And I love Blue Apron. It saves me an enormous amount of time in planning & shopping, it's close to the same cost as shopping, and I end up making things I never would have thought of myself.

I'll be the first to admit that it's cooking with training wheels, but I'm a busy professional with a young child. Anything that can save me time and stress is well worth it.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by comrh on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:02PM (#10329612)
The packaging is kind of crazy but they aren't "mostly-prepared", they only ship you the ingredients.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by mratzloff on Sunday October 04, 2015 @09:54PM (#10329602)
Oh man, I wish I could up vote this comment more than once. I had never heard about this service but it looks perfect for me. I love to cook but hate grocery shopping or planning meals. I'm starting to get into other services like these. For example, I've started to use Trunk Club for clothing with good results.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by harryh on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:19PM (#10329649)
I just sent you a free week to try it out. I've been a customer for close to 3 years and love it.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by onecommentjust on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:54PM (#10329734)
The guy you replied to doesn't have an email address in his profile. How did you "send him a free week to try it out"? Does Hacker News have some sort of user-to-user communication that I'm not aware of?
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by harryh on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:56PM (#10329741)
I googled his username and found his github which has his email.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by mratzloff on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:27PM (#10329670)
Beautiful. Thanks!
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by stouset on Sunday October 04, 2015 @10:38PM (#10329690)
My bullshit detector is pinging wildly on the linked diet. Gluten-free, measured salt intake, 6 glasses of water per day, and the list goes on. No thanks — I'll take my diet advice from people that follow the science, not pop trends.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by pbreit on Monday October 05, 2015 @12:35AM (#10329991)
Fair enough but it's mostly just whole foods and quite a bit better than a lot of people's diets.
Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by roflchoppa on Sunday October 04, 2015 @09:49PM (#10329591)
Have you considered meal prepping? It takes me maybe an hour to prep almost a weeks worth of food, which is lunch and dinner.

Well ill have to be honest, i just eat the same thing over and over again. Chicken, Quinoa (or rice if you want) Broccoli, potatoes, lentils.

My digestive system loves it.

Re:The Wretched Table: How Dinner in America Became an Ordeal by douche on Sunday October 04, 2015 @09:30PM (#10329545)
I'm always kind of surprised when I encounter people that go purchase ingredients for nearly every meal. Then again, where I grew up, unless it was something like bread, milk, or eggs, going to the store meant driving half an hour. We had a chest freezer full of beef and broccoli and a a basement room full of jars of green beans and tomatoes. Not really a realistic option living in an apartment or a suburb with postage-stamp yards, I suppose

Lots of family time planting, weeding, picking and processing all those damned vegetables, though...