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Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by junto on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:02PM (#10280366)
Ladies and gentlemen. This is how you do blackmail, corporate espionage, and sway politicians on a truly industrial scale.

Want to push a bill through the House of Commons to curb GCHQ's powers? Think again Mr. Politician. Someone might just leak your sexual deviances to the newspaper.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by pdkl95 on Friday September 25, 2015 @09:43PM (#10281764)
The pr0n gets you blackmail material, but the social networks give you relationship maps.

Leaning on a politician is an obvious tactic, but it's somewhat heavy-handed. If the politician were to fight back, there could be expensive blowback. Worse, it's a single (or nearly single) point of failure. The bill could pass regardless of the actions of that one politician. A talented blackmailer should only want to directly lean on someone as a last resort.

There is much better tactic: find the people who may organize other people against your interests. If you take out the potential future leaders, journalists, and educators - aka, the people that will organize the writing of that bill - then you prevent the problem before it starts. When the FBI was busting up the hippies, this was known as COINTELPRO. It's laughable to think the program ended with the Church Committee - like "total information awareness", the program was simply split up into various existing programs.

A politician could be idealistic and fight back against blackmail. With social network information, a counter intelligence program can avoid this risk by leaning on the target's friends or family instead.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by lotharbot on Friday September 25, 2015 @10:44PM (#10281899)
It reminds me of the post about using metadata to find Paul Revere: http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metada...

Last-second blackmail isn't really the best way to defeat a political movement. Compromising the central figures in organizing the movement -- not necessarily "taking them out", but potentially just reducing their involvement or creating some alienation -- when the movement is still young is the way to really stop it.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by caseysoftware on Saturday September 26, 2015 @12:24PM (#10283486)
I was thinking of how to use it to de-cloak anonymous sources for journalists. Many of them are going to use anonymous email addresses, potentially VPNs/tor to further protect that but that's not the weak part.

Before you choose to share information, you're going to find out who will actually use it effectively which implies research. Then once you share the information, you're going to pay attention to what they write with it. In both cases, since you're not doing the actual leak then, you're unlikely to take any countermeasures, let alone effective ones.

For example, odds are Snowden researched Greenwald before he released anything to him. He probably read a ton of his pieces, looked at his wikipedia, and dug into his professional, etc profiles. And then after the leak, he probably continued to check Greenwald's regularly keeping an eye out for the new pieces. Even if we didn't know who Snowden was, a program like this would uncloak* him relatively quickly.

* Or at least narrow down the suspects.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by pdkl95 on Saturday September 26, 2015 @03:59PM (#10284230)
All it takes is metadata.

The "digital exhaust" we leave behind is extremely revealing. I usually use COTRAVELER as my example of how just a few data points (without any PII) can reveal a LOT about your social interactions, but browser history is another powerful data source.

I believe this is why Dan Geer, in his incredible talk last year[1], suggested that "privacy" should now be defined as "the effective capacity to misrepresent yourself". To avoid exactly the type of analysis, you need the capability to misrepresent yourself, and you need to regularly be in the habit of use use that capability.

    Misrepresentation is using disinformation to frustrate data fusion
    on the part of whomever it is that is watching you.  Some of it can
    be low-tech, such as misrepresentation by paying your therapist in
    cash under an assumed name.  Misrepresentation means arming yourself
    not at Walmart but in living rooms.  Misrepresentation means swapping
    affinity cards at random with like-minded folks.  Misrepresentation
    means keeping an inventory of misconfigured webservers to proxy
    through.  Misrepresentation means putting a motor-generator between
    you and the Smart Grid.  Misrepresentation means using Tor for no
    reason at all.  Misrepresentation means hiding in plain sight when
    there is nowhere else to hide.  Misrepresentation means having not
    one digital identity that you cherish, burnish, and protect, but
    having as many as you can. 
 
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT-TGvYOBpI http://geer.tinho.net/geer.blackhat.6viii14.txt
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by a3n on Saturday September 26, 2015 @09:56AM (#10283102)
And thus Angela Merkel has been spied on since her earliest political days.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by rm_-rf_slash on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:06PM (#10280390)
I think we're due for a second sexual revolution, one where we once and for all settle our relationship between individual, society, and sex, where the only reason you should be concerned with someone else's consensual behavior is if:

1: You're banging them

2: You want to bang them

3: It's your kid and they're underage.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by Asbostos on Friday September 25, 2015 @10:52PM (#10281912)
Isn't that just a statement of contemporary popular standards? They're not rules set in stone. The definitions of "underage" and "consent" are not nearly as clear cut as you might hope. Lots of people (in couples) have sex as a kind of trade for something they want. Is that consensual? What if it's a trade for something really really important to them? What if it's a trade to avoid being verbally abused by your partner? What if it's for money you need to survive?

Regarding age of consent, what if a mature 15yr old seduces a naive and vulnerable 21yr old and causes lasting emotional harm? How is that "none of my business" but the reverse isn't?

What if a 16 year old from England travels to America and has sex with a 20 year old? Is that OK (UK law) or not (US law)?

What you call a revolution sounds more like the way it already is for many people, and is full of arbitrary and changeable definitions that unfairly discriminate against harmless activity while also allowing harmful activity.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by rm_-rf_slash on Saturday September 26, 2015 @10:30AM (#10283182)
I find Japan's model of consent ages intriguing. I believe the standard age is 18, but exceptions can be made with parental consent down to 13. Not that it should be 13, but I do think it's rather absurd to create legal issues for, say, a 16-year old and a 19-year old who have been dating for three years,
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by gaius on Saturday September 26, 2015 @03:31AM (#10282445)
This is one thing the EU has yet to work up the courage for, "harmonizing" the age of consent, which varies from 13 to 16 in member countries.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by kwhitefoot on Saturday September 26, 2015 @09:09AM (#10283000)
Why should the EU harmonize such things? I'm not necessarily disagreeing but it would be interesting to see the reasoning.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by gaius on Saturday September 26, 2015 @02:12PM (#10283884)
Because harmonizing things is what it does, it is bound to make the attempt at some point. It will be very interesting see how member countries react...
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by nailer on Saturday September 26, 2015 @06:09AM (#10282674)
> Isn't that just a statement of contemporary popular standards?

No. Some sexual acts are still seemed shameful by society.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by petra on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:33PM (#10280825)
I think this is far different from a sexual revolution. Through history, our notions of acceptable sexual behaviour changed quite dramatically, so the sexual revolution isn't that unique.

But all through history, human beings had some notion of a private space. The catholic confession booth is the only counter example i can think of, and even there it was just between you and you priest which was trained specifically for that role, and you had some control of what you did expose there.

And at least some psychologists ,when asked about this issue, believe that a right for privacy is critical for the psychological well being of people, not something we can give away without consequences.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by personlurking on Saturday September 26, 2015 @06:05AM (#10282668)
> But all through history, human beings had some notion of a private space.

This CBC series, The Origins of the Modern Public, would dispute that idea (specifically - and I don't know if this is what you are talking about - the positive sense of privacy). Luckily, a nice HNer ripped the mp3s. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2984068

Here's the specific episode (8) on privacy

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Ideas/Full+Episodes/2010/ID/1...

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by leppr on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:46PM (#10280576)
How about a political revolution, where legislative power would rest on every citizen in the country thus making the aforementioned tactic impossible (if such system ever came to exist I think we should call it a "Democracy").
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by JacobJans on Friday September 25, 2015 @08:56PM (#10281652)
That is an absolutely horrible idea. Why? Because proper legislation requires expert knowledge. It is simply impossible for every citizen to know enough to be able to be an effective legislator That's why we elect representatives.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by woodman on Friday September 25, 2015 @09:28PM (#10281738)
So instead we hope that the results of a popularity contest are experts in crafting 'proper legislation'? No, representatives are theoretically there to guard against majority tyranny - it has nothing to do with building the most efficient legislation generating machine. This design is reflected in the whole checks and balances thing. I do agree with you about it being a horrible idea though, maybe we should reconsider the wisdom in granting some small portion of our freedom to every other voter. 42% of Americans believe in ghosts... let that sink in.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by crdoconnor on Friday September 25, 2015 @10:27PM (#10281862)
>No, representatives are theoretically there to guard against majority tyranny

This is a classic case of the just world fallacy.

Historically, representative democracy with one man one vote exists because that was the result of the last compromise between the underclasses and elites trying to keep them from getting out of hand.

It isn't any more theoretically reasonable than the compromise before that (no women voting), or the one before that (no blacks) or the one before that (nobody votes who doesn't own property) or the one before that (nobody votes).

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by woodman on Friday September 25, 2015 @11:17PM (#10281959)
> This is a classic case of the just world fallacy.

Who is experiencing the bias here, the founders of the representative democracy or me for pointing to the political theory? I assume you're talking about some system that isn't the US government, because otherwise your recollection of history is way off.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by crdoconnor on Saturday September 26, 2015 @12:57AM (#10282153)
That depends on whether you are endorsing it or not.

"Theoretically", we had kings because of the divine right of kings. Theoretically the American expansion was justified by manifest destiny. Theoretically women were not allowed to vote because "90% did not want it" or because it would "place the government under petticoat rule".

Theoretically, today, we have representatives in government because the people aren't smart enough to represent themselves.

Every system of power and domination creates a justification for its own existence and it's nearly always bullshit.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by woodman on Saturday September 26, 2015 @04:06AM (#10282516)
> That depends on whether you are endorsing it or not.

You might want to reserve the use of the word "fallacy" for cases where an argument's logic does not follow. Ironically, use the word otherwise often betrays one's own cognitive biases.

As far as my endorsement, I don't think I could state my position any more clearly than I already have: "...maybe we should reconsider the wisdom in granting some small portion of our freedom to every other voter. 42% of Americans believe in ghosts..."

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by pessimizer on Saturday September 26, 2015 @10:11AM (#10283130)
> You might want to reserve the use of the word "fallacy" for cases where an argument's logic does not follow.

You have yet to make an argument that "representatives are theoretically there to guard against majority tyranny." If you had, it wouldn't be a just world fallacy.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by woodman on Saturday September 26, 2015 @02:21PM (#10283929)
> You have yet to make an argument that...

Correct, I have no interest in arguing that position. Any highschool graduate should immediately recognize "majority tyranny" and the political theory that it is connected to. If I had argued the virtue of representative democracy, it might have been biased by the just world fallacy, but I haven't - so it wasn't.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by crdoconnor on Friday September 25, 2015 @10:17PM (#10281843)
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by yuhong on Friday September 25, 2015 @10:44PM (#10281897)
I have been thinking about sortition for a while now.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by dredmorbius on Saturday September 26, 2015 @07:09AM (#10282747)
As have I, with some level of favourability. It avoids the problems of campaign finance and low voter turnout, though not of tampering once in office. It adds the additional complication of legislators or executives who face little or no consequence for their actions. Not sure how it would work out ultimately.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by yuhong on Saturday September 26, 2015 @01:10PM (#10283627)
If it works out properly, such legislators will be few enough that it will not be a major problem.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by barry-cotter on Saturday September 26, 2015 @02:11AM (#10282294)
Switzerland disproves your argument.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by blumkvist on Saturday September 26, 2015 @03:52AM (#10282485)
I can think of an exception to every rule.

Also, Switzerland does not vote on every law with a referendum.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by logingone on Sunday September 27, 2015 @01:14PM (#10287163)
Hmm... representatives... like the guy with two kitchens representing the homeless.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by meddlepal on Friday September 25, 2015 @08:50PM (#10281627)
Democracy is slow and ill-suited for getting shit done.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by kazinator on Friday September 25, 2015 @08:51PM (#10281633)
Bureaucracy is slow and ill-suited for getting shit done.

The question is whether democracy needs bureaucracy, and if so, how much.

Obviously, democracy requires certain decisions to be made according to certain processes, which take time.

So you can't do away with all bureaucracy.

The documents aren't going to push themselves. :)

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by gaius on Saturday September 26, 2015 @05:23AM (#10282617)
In ancient Athens, they managed it.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by tdkl on Saturday September 26, 2015 @10:02AM (#10283118)
Ancient Athens, the home of democracy, was a small community.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by herge on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:30PM (#10280500)
Tell that to everyone who clicked on a tabloid headline about David Cameron and a pig's head.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:11PM (#10280715)
Cameron is still in power.

Considering what his government gets up to, it's completely clear he has no conscience at all.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by blibble on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:53PM (#10280946)
GCHQ and MI5 have been up to this sort of thing for decades.

I don't expect it'll ever change, as by the time someone's made it to high office, then the agencies will have collected enough material to keep them quiet and on side.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by Lawtonfogle on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44PM (#10280566)
I'm finding humor in the fact that number 3 has an AND and not an OR in it.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by diyorgasms on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:07PM (#10280697)
Out of curiousity, why?

If your kid isn't underage, then presumably they are capable of making rational decisions about with whom and to what they consent. And at that point it's none of your damn business.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by function_seven on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:13PM (#10280724)
I think Lawtonfogle meant the opposite. If the minor isn't your kid, but you're aware of it, you should still make it your business.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by sneak on Friday September 25, 2015 @05:14PM (#10280728)
I think he was pointing out the bug in the rule of (underage, not your kid).
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by rm_-rf_slash on Friday September 25, 2015 @06:01PM (#10280982)
Yeah I meant "your kid and underage" as your business in a personal sense. I assumed underage being the law's business was implied.

I like your choice of the word "bug." That's why I come to HN.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by Lawtonfogle on Monday September 28, 2015 @04:31PM (#10292983)
In a legal jurisdiction where the average person has ability to influence the law, the areas of personal business and legal business have significant overlap.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by morgante on Saturday September 26, 2015 @11:36AM (#10283349)
So if someone else is having sex with their underage daughter, I shouldn't care?
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by Lawtonfogle on Monday September 28, 2015 @04:28PM (#10292965)
Consider the case where the individual is underage, isn't your kid, and the one(s) whose kid they are doesn't care.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by unethical_ban on Friday September 25, 2015 @09:02PM (#10281669)
I don't care if two OTHER 15 yr olds bang each other. If some punk 15yr old is banging mine, I care.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by mkaziz on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:21PM (#10280469)
I'd correct #3 to *they're underage.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by rorykoehler on Saturday September 26, 2015 @10:12AM (#10283133)
Who's really the weirdo. The guy watching pr0n or the guys watching the guy watching pr0n?
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by j-l- on Saturday September 26, 2015 @06:19AM (#10282689)
It is done because of data that it brings. Not because of deviances of House of Commons members. Moreover, in western countries like UK it is quite difficult to be classified as deviant.
Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by bootload on Saturday September 26, 2015 @07:29AM (#10282789)
"Someone might just leak your sexual deviances to the newspaper."

Within the services, this is colloquially called the 'sluts & nuts' file.

Re:From Radio to Porn, British Spies Track Web Users’ Online... by blazespin on Saturday September 26, 2015 @12:47AM (#10282135)
You don't blackmail them, you proactively undermine their credibility by just leaking anything that might discredit them.