News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by johnrob on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:23PM (#10260976)
I think about this quite often. Perhaps a more effective argument for this effort is social impact (rather than financial savings). The tech industry is reeking havoc upon lower income earners by rapidly increasing the cost of living. Ironically, many of these companies are social minded and have programs to assist those in need from a day-to-day perspective (i.e. free meal, cleanup projects, etc etc). However, the elephant in the room is that they've done far more damage than is possible to rectify via charity.

Which comes back to the social argument: if tech companies proactively migrate these highly paid tech workers to other municipalities, it could significantly reduce the pressure on rent and home prices. The initiative could be sold as a massive goodwill effort to the local community. And, of course, the employees who willingly move away would get rewarded with a much lower cost of living.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by svsanta on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:42PM (#10261115)
Why is it the tech industry's fault? It's a good thing that the industry is prospering. Would you rather have people losing their jobs? However, it is a bad thing that the housing supply is not keeping up, leading to high rents. There needs to be way more housing supply. This is the obvious solution that is somewhat of a third rail issue due to local politics and homeowners. The fact that even Palantir employees have lobbied for more housing in Palo Alto shows it is really affecting everyone who doesn't already own a house or condo, even those well off.

Also, it's not like the area isn't benefitting from prosperity through taxes. Why is it a company's responsibility to donate for cleanup projects when their taxes already pay for such things? If there should be more meal programs in a city, the city can vote for that, and fund it through taxes.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by johnrob on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:48PM (#10261163)
The correct thing to do is build a shit ton of housing. But that will never happen politically. So I was simply offering a solution that might be attainable.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by rm_-rf_slash on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:15PM (#10261380)
Wrong, building housing as a means to reduce housing prices is a huge misconception. If a low-rise neighborhood sees the construction of a mid-rise condo building, you've suddenly raised the opportunity cost of not having dense housing, and prices go up regardless.

EDIT: Apparently I'm being downvoted without comment. Great way to further the dialogue. Well, I will: I live in a college town and when developers promised a decade ago that replacing houses with high rises would lower housing prices, well, they built the apartment blocks and prices still went up across the board, by a lot. I'm not talking out of my ass, here.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by maccam94 on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @12:53AM (#10263376)
As long as demand outstrips supply, prices will go up. How much depends on how big the gap is. Government action can try to limit this (subsidizing construction in nearby areas, improving public transit to areas with more room to build, slashing police budgets to increase the crime rate....) but it only works if it can shift the demand.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by politician on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @02:10AM (#10263542)
> slashing police budgets to increase the crime rate [to reduce housing prices]

That sounds interesting -- can you point me to any documentation about this practice, or are you just brainstorming?

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by Decade on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @01:09AM (#10263415)
It's simply a matter of supply-and-demand economics. Supply is going up, but demand is going up even faster, like one or two orders of magnitude faster.

San Francisco's population has been growing at about 900 people per month for the past few years. San Francisco's housing stock has been growing at about 150 units per month. Approving new housing is way too hard, and the economically illiterate voters just throw up even more roadblocks to housing (e.g. Proposition B, passed by 14% of San Francisco's registered voters in a very-low-turnout June 2014 election).

Tall buildings also cost more per unit to build, which needs to come out in the price. But the way I see it, 1 unit of rich person living in a luxury condo is 1 unit of rich person not out-competing a middle-class family for a little house in a boring neighborhood.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @06:22AM (#10264218)
Again, the reasonable expectation and misconception. When you have a remarkably elastic demand for housing (tech workers and college students WILL pay), then it signals to property owners that they can raise rates by a few ticks. Like I mentioned above, if you create a ton of prime housing stock and charge a ton to live there, then you've effectively moved the goalposts and set the new normal for rent. So while that rich person may not live in the boring neighborhood, the middle class family will have to pay more to live there because of the presence of proximate wealth.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by Decade on Sunday September 27, 2015 @04:18AM (#10285855)
Economic illiteracy, Exhibit A.

The definition of elastic demand is that there is change in demand given a change in price. College students and tech workers, who will pay anything for their place, are examples of demand inelasticity. The demand keeps going up, despite the price.

Though, I suppose you have a point, considering the global market. There are enough houses in the United States for everybody to live. It’s just that more people want to live in the Bay Area than in Detroit, so we’re double- and quadruple-packed here while entire neighborhoods go empty there. And then, skyrocketing house prices attract speculators, who will bid against people who actually belong here and keep the price rising as long as possible.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by pm24601 on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @01:22PM (#10266435)
The missing bit is that that first dense housing signals unmet demand. The real keys are:

1. is to keep on going with the dense housing to saturate.

2. a city council that insists on below-market-rate housing be included with the development

3. layer cake development: bottom floor is retail, middle is office, top floors are apartments/hotels + below market rate

This prevents developers from cherry-picking the highest demand usage for their building at the expense of the total needs of the community.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by mahyarm on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:44PM (#10261134)
I would say the havok is caused by NIMBYs + rapid economic expansion. For example, there are no height minimums for new construction in the bay area, but constant height maximums.

Would this havok occur in a building friendly city, such as Dallas? They have encountered a recent economic boom due to oil, but you don't hear many complaints of rapid price increases.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by nemo44x on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:16PM (#10261396)
Yup. The Bay Area needs to start aggressively building up. The people already there have to give it up and realize their little California suburb isn't that anymore.

Those scared that building up will lower their property values need to relax. Population density will bring more value and thus more desire to live in an area raising the property values of locals. A house that sells for 1.5 million right now could be sitting on a piece of land worth 50 million if a high rise wanted to use it.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by Decade on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @02:26AM (#10263589)
So, we need to vote. San Francisco’s stupid direct democracy system means 14% of registered voters voting in an off-year primary election (June 2014) are now forcing everybody else to have to come out to vote yes on Proposition D this November in order for the Mission Rock housing project to get off the ground.

We also need to defeat Proposition I. A moratorium on new housing permits along with more “studies” is exactly not what we need in this housing crisis.

I haven’t looked at the other propositions enough to have an opinion to relay about those, yet. However, you can be sure that the anti-growth voters will be out in force, and we need to come out and vote for more housing.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by mahyarm on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @01:48PM (#10266630)
Problem is, something like %40 of the bay area are immigrants, and a good chunk of them cannot vote. I don't even know if it would be legal for them to participate in the political process through promotions and so on.

Maybe a proposition to allow immigrants to vote in city politics might be good too.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by seiji on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:48PM (#10261164)
height minimums would be great.

It's almost disgusting walking around ~8th st soma and seeing single story car maintenance places or strip malls take up entire blocks. Tear them down and build rows and rows of 5 story to 20 story apartments.

As for Dallas (err... THE METROPLEX), it isn't a peninsula with restricted growth, crappy highways, and old money refusing anything new that doesn't look like a quaint bombed out city from the old country. I still don't understand why south san francisco looks like a 3rd world country. Eminent domain the whole area and build neotokyo on top of the existing shanty town.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by Reedx on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:11PM (#10261349)
Indeed. Unfortunately there is a lot of pushback on anything that increases building height. I've received notices in the mail urging residents to oppose new constructions that could set a "dangerous precedent" in this regard.

Argh.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by roghummal on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @12:42AM (#10263345)
But it's "the city"!
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by nugget on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:55PM (#10261226)
It's havok upon more than just lower income earners. That is the most ironic part of it to me, the tech industry is doing this to itself, like a dog trying to chew off its own tail. When you're earning a lot and spending a lot you feel like you are doing well, even if your net savings is close to zero. I've found this attitude especially prevalent among younger folks. The real beneficiaries in a gold rush are the landlords, the government (more taxes), and vandwellers who can effectively arbitrage the high wage-high cost of living gap.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by some-guy on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:14PM (#10261367)
> The real beneficiaries in a gold rush are the landlords, the government (more taxes), and vandwellers who can effectively arbitrage the high wage-high cost of living gap.

Another issue is that there is quite a bit of an income gap within the tech industry itself. Yes, a $100k salary out of college is fantastic, but the cost of living is so ridiculously high that it's almost impossible to buy decent housing here unless you already have old money (which I don't). My parents had an easier time in the 1970s buying a house with their lower salary (adjusted for inflation) than I do now in the Bay Area.

Conversely, many of my hip millenial techie peers are willing to blow their entire salary living in San Francisco, going out to eat every night, driving up their credit cards. I don't have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of folks I know who make six figures and spend 70%+ of their income on rent alone just to be around their friends.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by encoderer on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:32PM (#10261503)
You need to work a company that will pay you in liquid equity. I suppose cash bonuses would also work. You only need 5-10% down payment.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by johnrob on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @04:53PM (#10261638)
Couldn't agree more. This is the consumer version of a business that focuses on revenue while ignoring profit margin.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by gorkemyurt on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:34PM (#10261053)
This is an option right now, almost all big tech companies have offices in Seattle Austin or Boulder. People just want to stay in San Francisco.. Its a great city to live in both when you are a fresh collage hire and if you are trying to raise a child.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by Reedx on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:56PM (#10261230)
I assume you meant not a great city if you're trying to raise a child?

Between the insane rent and child care costs... it's just not worth it. ~$4k/mo for a 2 bedroom and then you're looking at $1k+/mo for one kid in daycare. I've been living in SF for the past five years and despite how much I like it, I'll probably move out with a baby on the way.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by sawthat on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @11:59PM (#10263244)
I have two kids and I live in SF. I'm just a regular old developer too. For day care you should probably be budgeting more like $2k, FYI.

I live in the outer sunset and I own my home.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Economic Indicator: Caltrain Ridership by johnrob on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @03:44PM (#10261133)
Companies aren't proactively encouraging employees to migrate though. The employee has to ask for a approval, and if granted it's generally considered a favor.