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Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by mtgx on Monday September 21, 2015 @05:06AM (#10251155)
Jesus, why do Android engineers keep getting security so wrong so often? And they even bragged so much about how L is (finally) getting storage encryption by default, which they promptly killed after the Nexus 6 launch (because apparently they are stupid and launched the device without hardware accelerated encryption, even though the chip supported...ugh).

We still haven't heard anything about it being re-enabled in Android M again (or ever). Also, I remember reading about Android <4.4 (optional) storage crypto being seriously broken as well.

It's unfortunate because many people probably still believe they are getting default storage encryption. Heck, all the new stories on encryption and the FBI still (falsely) mention how Android is encrypting the storage by default. It reminds of media sites saying Skype is P2P and secure against eavesdropping years after Microsoft announced it changed its infrastructure to a centralized wiretap-friendly model, just like everyone else.

The gap between iOS and Android in terms of security (and privacy, too) seems to only be increasing every year. If they keep this up I may finally switch to an iPhone after years of being an Android-only user.

https://medium.com/@FredericJacobs/apple-ios-9-security-priv...

And that's even without mentioning the horrible update problem that Android has. I've just learned to live with that by installing custom ROMs after my phone stops being supported a year into its life-cycle, which is obviously not ideal in terms of security nor is it something I should have to do to get better security.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by jerf on Monday September 21, 2015 @08:13AM (#10251656)
"Jesus, why do Android engineers keep getting security so wrong so often?"

Security is hard. Really profoundly hard, not just superficially hard.

And despite the fact that nominally I'd expect to get upvotes for stating what you'd think would be the groupthink consensus, my observation is that in the field, even engineers explicitly tasked with security still often think it's really easy and they're really good at it, so there's no great need for them to budget lots of time for it. This turns out poorly. I do not toss this around lightly because it's become cliche to just fling it around without much care, but there's a lot of real, no-foolin' Dunning-Kruger effect operative in this area.

(Your test for Dunning-Kruger on this matter is: If you're told you need to secure something and you're going to be personally responsible for its security, do you A: Say "Oh, that's easy, I'll 'just'..." followed by pretty much any series of words, or B: get the cold flop sweats, regardless of how easy it may superficially seem?)

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by ajross on Monday September 21, 2015 @11:45AM (#10253030)
> Security is hard. Really profoundly hard, not just superficially hard.

Indeed. There is an army of naked celebrities dancing around the internet today because of an "iOS" hole that didn't even involve the device OS at all.

Picking on specific features to announce "Apple is more secure" is very much missing the point.

That said, yeah: I'm not a big fan of Android's security architecture either, though it has been improving rapidly.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by jtriangle on Monday September 21, 2015 @02:34PM (#10254236)
> though it has been improving rapidly.

This is an important factor, and maybe the fatal flaw in android's carrier relationships. Google is always very fast to push a fix out, but the carriers always drag their feet in getting the fix to the actual devices.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by ajross on Monday September 21, 2015 @03:19PM (#10254518)
It's really not. We're talking about security architecture here (which rolls out only with OS releases) and not security bugs (which get rapid patches on all but the most negligent of OEM devices).

Having a better security architecture works (to stretch the metaphor) like immunization: past a certain adoption level you reach a "herd immunity" state where the marginal benefit to an attacker of a specific flaw drops rapidly to zero even though there are still "old" devices out there in the market in small numbers.

Basically, the market refresh cycle is still at something like 18 months, so even given that OEMs are slow new Android releases are reaching the public in large numbers fairly promptly.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by jtriangle on Monday September 21, 2015 @09:22PM (#10256146)
That is actually a great point, hardware refresh is such that updates get performed regularly. Also, this exploit requires hardware access to the phone, which is generally considered game over in any respect.

It would be beneficial if carriers could come up with updates faster however. I've seen Verizon drag its feet on more than one occasion, especially with phones that are a generation or two behind.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by alanh on Monday September 21, 2015 @05:40PM (#10255320)
> There is an army of naked celebrities dancing around the internet today because of an "iOS" hole that didn't even involve the device OS at all.

Are you referring to the year-ago iCloud “hacks” or is there a really surprising twist to the whole XCode Ghost thing that I haven’t heard about? :)

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by fyolnish on Monday September 21, 2015 @08:40AM (#10251763)
His point was that iOS is more secure. I don't see how security being hard is a counterpoint to that.
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by jerf on Monday September 21, 2015 @08:50AM (#10251816)
It's actually a bizarre thing when anybody gets security right the first time. If Apple happened to do something well, that's a huge credit to Apple. Heck, even Android's experience here is above the baseline for our industry.
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by blinkingled on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:20AM (#10252428)
Complexity is the bane of Security. Android has to work on a ton of devices with a ton of variation and it has its upsides and downsides. In this case many OEMs ship their own lock screens that update via Play Store and so for example none of my dozen Android devices have this issue - the stock ones are already patched and non stock ones didn't have it in first place. The downside is that the code has to cater to far more variations than something simpleton and that means more probability of security issues.

Given the scale and complexity I would say Google's done an acceptable job at Android security, but I do think they need to be even more serious about it. And it's not like iOS (remember lock screen bugs) or Mac OS X (remember password less logins succeeding?) haven't had their fair share of issues.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by cnvogel on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:20AM (#10252427)
> and you're going to be personally responsible for its security

Well... but Android is a year long (8 years since the first beta) effort backed by Google (55k employees) and companies like Samsung (490k employees). They might spare a few people coming up with a scheme for data encryption that works?

And really, I don't claim it's easy, and I don't claim that I personally could come up with something even halfway resembling Apple's solution. But Android seems, unfortunately, to not even be trying.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by m45t3r on Monday September 21, 2015 @09:47AM (#10252205)
No, encryption in Android 5.0 works really well, really. It is really well designed, not state-of-art like the one in iOS however it is still leaps ahead from any other encryption implementation currently in the industry. Perfomance wise, it's great too. I have a Moto X with Android 5.1, running encryption from day one, and didn't even notice any slowdown (and it uses soft encryption, no support for hardaware).

Android users seems to care more about benchmarks them security. The fact that Google removed the encryption by default was after all the bitching that people made after some releases showed that Nexus 6 was faster without encryption. However, there is no proof that this had any significant impact on performance, and I think Google put this restriction after a careful study that encryption by default, even on pure software implementation, did not impact usability on devices. OEMs do like benchmarks and likes to be lazy ("no encryption by default means I don't need to create a module implementing encryption that my hardware already supports! less money to spend, more profit!") because this makes people buy more phones, so they probably pressured Google to remove default encryption because encryption "makes performance looks worse" (on paper, not in real life).

If I was part of the midia, I would do a blind test running Nexus 6 with both encryption enabled and disabled. This would show if the performance impact was significant. But the majority of midia prefers the easier way using benchmarks, so we had all these Android users crying rivers that they lost performance. Serious, wtf.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by cnvogel on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:07AM (#10252332)
Compared to "no encryption", a S4 mini (Dual-core 1.7 GHz. 1.5 GB RAM) is almost unusable (~30 seconds to switch to an app that's stale, i.e. not one of the last few apps used) under Cyanogenmod 12.1 with full disk encryption on. Without encryption is was ~"ok" to use, not fast, but bearable.
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by bad_user on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:28AM (#10252481)
When speaking of disk encryption the bottleneck is the CPU. In order for encryption to work without a noticeable performance hit you need a microprocessor with hardware acceleration for AES. For example the latest Intel and AMD processors have the AES-NI instruction set. Ditto for the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon SoC.

I'm not sure if hardware acceleration is enabled in Nexus 6, but the hardware is certainly capable of acceleration. I now have an encrypted Nexus 6 and the performance is fine. My previous Nexus 4 was also encrypted and after encryption the performance hit was noticeable when booting up, but after boot it performs fine.

30 seconds to switch an app that's stale sounds like there's something really wrong either with your device or with the Cyanogenmod version you've got installed, judging by those specs at least.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by m45t3r on Monday September 21, 2015 @11:05AM (#10252764)
In modern processors the bottleneck generally is the IO. While it is not the same think (desktop vs phone processors), this author benchmarks OpenSSL in an algorithm similar that Android uses, with and without AES-NI (Intel HW encryption): https://mjanja.ch/2013/11/disabling-aes-ni-on-linux-openssl/.

Even without AES-NI, this processor is doing more than 100MB/s of encryption. Mobile storage is a lot worse than this (like less than 50MB/s in sustained sequential writes), and you have to remember this would be the worst case (since the majority of writes for common users is small files instead of big files).

Just to put in perspective: my Moto X can write around ~20MB/s when transferring files by USB 2.0. And it can still write the same ~20MB/s with encryption on.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by madeofpalk on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:13AM (#10252377)
> not state-of-art like the one in iOS however it is still leaps ahead from any other encryption implementation currently in the industry.

Considering the industry Android is in is essentially only iOS and Android, that makes them the worst in the industry...

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by m45t3r on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:49AM (#10252640)
There is Windows Phone if you only consider "industry" mobile phones, however I was considering the whole personal computing industry. In this case, includes Mac OS X, Windows, Linux and you get the idea.

Or you only encrypt your phone and leaves your notebook unecrypted? This would be silly.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by drzaiusapelord on Monday September 21, 2015 @02:14PM (#10254099)
Everything about Android is a rushed project. Rubin's team was running scared of OpenMoko hype, Blackberry success in enterprise, and Windows Mobile everywhere else. Then Google snatch it up and ran scared of Apple. And now here we are.

Android needs an 18-24 "gap" period of re-engineering everything they rushed, but at that point you might as well just write a new OS. I suspect there is a secret 2nd version of Android that isn't virtual machine based, doesn't use Java, but has whatever backwards compatibility needed to work with the existing applications. If things get too hot from Oracle, then that will be the next version of Android. Switching to ART seems to suggest that Google has some portability chops here. Incremental updates like they're doing now is the path of least resistance, but considering how much more polished iOS is, I really doubt Android will ever be on that level. Its always going to be a little quick and dirty and I think if you buy an Android product you have to accept that.

I switched to the Nexus products from my 3GS. I knew Android was a step down in a lot of ways, but I wanted the hardware flexibility it offered. Now that I can get a big Apple phone with a swype keyboard AND it works with Android smartwatches, it seems the Android value proposition keeps getting weaker and weaker.

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by personjerry on Monday September 21, 2015 @07:14AM (#10251495)
Maybe Blackberry's security-oriented design isn't so lackluster after all
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by blinkingled on Monday September 21, 2015 @10:23AM (#10252440)
Given their track record - it was quite great actually.
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by raverbashing on Monday September 21, 2015 @06:45AM (#10251412)
I have to agree

Add to that forgetting a month in a calendar and an Alarm that rings for one second and stops

Almost justifies the extra price for the iPhone

Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by TwoBit on Monday September 21, 2015 @12:20PM (#10253269)
IOS had a security flaw only a few months ago that let a hacker get past anybody password by rebooting the device after a failed attempt.
Re:To hack an Android phone, just type in a really long pass... by enraged_camel on Monday September 21, 2015 @12:33PM (#10253382)
>>Jesus, why do Android engineers keep getting security so wrong so often?

What can you expect from a company that names its version releases after chocolates, candy and ice cream? That's literally the level of maturity with which they view their own product. So no wonder security is an afterthought.