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Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by raldi on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:55PM (#10244800)
In what way does everyone "have to use Google's search engine"? There are no barriers to switching; you could switch to Bing forever in about five seconds.

Unlike switching from Facebook, you don't need to get all your friends to come along. Unlike switching from GMail, you don't need to move a bunch of data. Unlike switching your company away from Windows, you don't need to buy all new software, retrain all staff, or get your partners to change the format they use to interchange data with you.

If someone were to build a better search engine, we would all just switch. Like when everyone left Altavista in 1999.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by samsolomon on Saturday September 19, 2015 @12:59PM (#10244811)
I think there's something to say about having a monopoly, because the product is better than the alternatives. That's better for consumers than having a monopoly, because there are no alternatives.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by sabrinaleblanc on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:34PM (#10244931)
Totally agree with you on this one, as long as the company doesn't stop better products from entering the market.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by tolmasky on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:06PM (#10245036)
Usually preventing better products is done through legal assistance:

1. Abusive use of patents to prevent small upstarts that can't afford litigation

2. Getting regulations passed that are so expensive only established players can afford them.

3. Making visa requirements so complex and expensive that it becomes a competitive advantage to have an entire department dedicated to it in your largco.

Having so much money that you can put out a product that integrated better with yours is just another spin on putting out a great product as far as I'm concerned, and thus never worries me.

IMHO doing away with patents would do much more to "curb bad monopolies" than any litigious strategy.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by cssblondie on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:51PM (#10245182)
Which, as you seem to be acknowledging, is really the whole debate over the antitrust cases.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by kushti on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:05PM (#10245234)
Isn't that Google bought duck.com? Isnt' that google demanding Android manufacturers to prioritize its apps (that's why Yandex sues the Google)? and so on.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by raldi on Saturday September 19, 2015 @05:43PM (#10245637)
Google owns duck.com, but that acquisition has nothing to do with DuckDuckGo. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3524336 for details.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by giancarlostoro on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:10PM (#10244855)
I've tried switching from Google to reasonable alternatives, and I usually have to go back to Google to search twice because the results are not what I was expecting, nowhere near. I'm not sure if this is only my own experience, no offence to other engines (and their engineers), but if you can't find what I'm looking for I'm going somewhere else to find it.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by _delirium on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:20PM (#10244888)
Getting a bit tangential: I've been trying Bing again recently out of curiosity, and at least for my usage I find it now pretty reasonable. A few years ago it was barely usable, but now I'm fairly happy with it. It also feels slightly snappier to me than Google on loading results. The main problem is that a small but significant number of sites have a robots.txt that excludes all non-Google crawlers, making it impossible for other search engines to display equally good results in cases where that site has something relevant (unless they blatantly ignore robots.txt).
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by caseysoftware on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:39PM (#10244948)
Why would someone do that?

If a site owner wants traffic on their site - and most do - they want to make their site as easily discoverable as possible. That means being in all the search engines. Blocking one engine (or all except one) flies in the face of most business models.

The only exception I can think of is Google properties. By blocking out competitors, they can try to worsen the experience on other engines. Like imagine a video search on Bing that didn't include YouTube? But even then, it seems like someone finding a Google property via Bing still furthers their interests.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by _delirium on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:25PM (#10245101)
Few deliberately block Bing specifically, it's just a sloppy attempt to block unwanted crawlers, like the billions of crawlers running on AWS and DigitalOcean boxes. A quick-but-not-great hack is to have an entry blocking * by default, and then specifically whitelist GoogleBot to avoid getting delisted from Google. You could also whitelist other search engines, but that requires you to know and care about them, and for a long period Google was the only engine people really cared about, since it drove >95% of organic search traffic. I do feel we're past the peak of that period, however, and site owners are now getting more cognizant of non-Google search engines having at least some value in driving traffic.

Related, "Please Don't Block Everything but Googlebot in robots.txt": http://danluu.com/googlebot-monopoly/

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by caseysoftware on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:32PM (#10245121)
So it's more out of ignorance than maliciousness. That makes sense.

Odds are the more troublesome scrapers are probably ignoring robots.txt anyway, so I wonder how useful it is.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by brobinson on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:01PM (#10245220)
Bing's image and video search have been superior to Google's for over a year now, in my opinion.

I use Bing as my default search engine, but it falls short of Google's results for a lot of programming-related queries. I still end up having to use Google a few times per day when I'm working.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by giancarlostoro on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:28PM (#10244913)
So wait, who actually blocks Bing but not Google? That is just completely odd sounding to me... But Bing is definitely one engine I'm trying to switch to, it just isn't reliable when I'm looking up programming related queries sometimes. Then again I always know all the key words to throw at Google to find whatever I'm looking for. Googling is a (query) programming language by itself.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by agumonkey on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:37PM (#10244940)
It's hard to say whether we're bubbled or if Google is really better. I tried duckduckgo for a while. There's a lot to love in ddg, but every time I needed something not obvious, I needed to check Google results too, just to be sure. And quite often, ddg results were, even if I'm not entirely fond of Google trying to understand meaning in my request, a bit too mechanical for my tastes.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by digi_owl on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:35PM (#10244935)
Been using duckduckgo for a year or two now. If the results are not satisfactory i can always drop a !g into he query to have them send me to the Google results.

That said, DDG is damn good at giving me relevant stuff on clear queries. But i find that Google and DDG alike gets into a bind if i get a bit technical.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by giancarlostoro on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:38PM (#10244942)
That's mostly my barrier for switching out of Google. Thanks for the tip, I always seem to forget that DDG can quickly push you back to Google when convenient.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by digi_owl on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:53PM (#10244995)
The real fun part is when you set it as default engine for a browser. Then you can do things like !w to search just wikipedia's articles etc right in the url bar.

There is also startpage.com (!s(tartpage) in DDG) to give anonymized Google results. And also ixquick (!ix(quick), natch) for a meta-search (not sure exactly what engines they cover).

https://duckduckgo.com/bang

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by ratsmack on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:38PM (#10245309)
I use Waterfox, which is the 64bit version of Firefox. I always use the builtin search located in the upper-right corner of the browser which allows me to choose which search engine to use on the fly. I use all of the most popular search engines depending on what I'm looking for. I find when I'm looking for services and products, Google seems to work best. The default I use is the Storm search engine which seems to return results that avoid commercially driven items. I would have to recommend that everyone not fall in love with a single source for web searching.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by sigma2015 on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:57PM (#10245201)
No need to leave Google for that purpose - just use Google from incognito mode in Firefox.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by A_COMPUTER on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:17PM (#10244878)
From the article, Reich is saying that Google used its dominant market position to unfairly promote its own products. Antitrust isn't only about lack of alternatives.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by raldi on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:23PM (#10244892)
But that has nothing to do with the part of the article that my comment is about.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by A_COMPUTER on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:33PM (#10244928)
Well, on second reading, you're right. He does slip in there next to Microsoft Windows that you somehow have to use Google Search because everyone else does, and doesn't explain how that supports the rest of his article. I don't think that's the main thrust of it, though.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by jMyles on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:25PM (#10244899)
> unfairly

I am as skeptical as anyone about giant corporations, but this is a stretch. How and why does our society expect players to refrain from using their current position to advance to a better position?

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by izacus on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:27PM (#10244910)
Because it hurts our society if they do. It's not about expecting, it's about limiting the damage they do.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by adventured on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:01PM (#10245223)
It does not hurt society if they're providing a superior product / value proposition for the consumer, regardless of bundling or self-promotion.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by HeyLaughingBoy on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:41PM (#10245320)
So you plan to stay in the same job for life, turning down any better offers you get?
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by blumkvist on Saturday September 19, 2015 @01:50PM (#10244991)
You should ask Bill Gates about that.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by BookmarkSaver on Saturday September 19, 2015 @03:27PM (#10245290)
You mean the guy that had the audacity to include a web browser with an operating system? Good thing we shut that sort of thinking down, no telling how much the tech industry would have been hurt if we hadn't prevented that sort of practice.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by blumkvist on Saturday September 19, 2015 @04:33PM (#10245470)
Although Microsoft was sued for browsers and APIs, their true anti-competitive behavior lied elsewhere - pricing strategies. They will probably do it again too. I can't wait for all the surprised faces "but, but, but... windows had 3% market share".
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by obastani on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:05PM (#10245031)
One potential issue is data -- Google can leverage its huge number of historical searches to improve search for everyone. I doubt this is a huge issue for players such as Microsoft, but it probably poses difficulties for a small start-up.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by bobthechef on Saturday September 19, 2015 @11:02PM (#10246434)
True, but that misses the bigger picture of what these tech giants are doing. It also fails to account for how difficult it is to switch to something else once something has become entrenched. You could switch, but the answer is that you likely won't and the reason you won't isn't necessarily because the product is "better". One of the article's central ideas is that entrenchment can breed more entrenchment that hurts the common good. You might get a better overall search engine, but that search engine is bound up with power that goes beyond search.
Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by xg15 on Saturday September 19, 2015 @06:52PM (#10245816)
If someone were to build a better search engine, yes. However, how do you do that if Google has its own data centers across the world, has special arrangements with ISPs so they can run edge servers directly in their networks and can cross-correlate their search results with data from all their other services - which include the aforementioned GMail, many millions of Chrome and Android installations and ad/analytics code embedded in a sizable percentage of all websites? Not to mention all the websites which will optimize their coffee for Google, not for your engine.

Note that I'm not talking about some clever algorithms or UI or any other kind of actual innovation. All that stuff is solely "capital" they could accumulate due to their existing power and reputation, but which gives them a huge advantage. A startup, no matter how genius their algorithms are, couldn't beat them in that field, simply because they don't have those resources.

Of course you could say "so what, that's the free market" - and of course building capital is a normal post of business - but when this inequality is so severe that it makes competition practically impossible (or only possible between 3 or 4 well-established players, as we see now) then I'd argue that something sounds be done.

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by bediger4000 on Saturday September 19, 2015 @07:05PM (#10245854)
If someone were to build a better search engine, yes.

But isn't that what the essence of competition is, in the search engine market?

Re:Big Tech Has Become Too Powerful by Drdrdrq on Saturday September 19, 2015 @02:47PM (#10245167)
Google the search engine doesn't have a monopoly, but Google the search advertising does (adwords).